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+------ Thread: Legal Question - CoI for Evil Wolf (/thread-2000.html)
RE: Legal Question - CoI for Evil Wolf - Unibot - 03-26-2015
(03-26-2015, 05:06 AM)Aramanchovia Wrote: I'd just like to point out that the precedent you mentioned in your first post Uni is a slightly different situation. TUSR just didn't follow the requirements for a COI at all, rather than leaving one item out. The COI mentioned can be found here for reference:
http://thesouthpacific.x10.mx/thread-1298.html
Not saying it is better or worse, it is probably not a fair comparison though, which the justices on this case (I will not be one of them) may not have been aware of.
I was aware there was a difference, but the point I was trying to make is CoI's are a big deal. They have to be filed properly - candidates can lose their candidacy over it. I brought it up solely because I knew there'd be people who'd try to argue CoIs are just a little inconsequential bit of red tape. On the contrary, it's how we inform voters of our past history - it's potentially the most important disclaimer that a candidate makes.
Quote:I challenge Unibot, who is the accuser and bares the burden of proof, to prove that I have otherwise thought these two entities were one in the same, and thus intentionally was trying to askew my CoI, rather than firmly believing that they were two separate things, with any inaccuracies, which I still maintain I am correct by-the-by, being accidental rather than purposeful.
This is entirely disingenuous - as history has shown, The Empire is just The Empire (!!!). There was no "Empire of The East Pacific". It was The Empire - they referred to themselves as The Empire then and refer to themselves as The Empire now. You only tried to make this distinction because it sounds better to say "I was a former citizen of The East Pacific" than it does, "I was a former member of The Empire" - you still needed to disclose the latter, however.
RE: Legal Question - CoI for Evil Wolf - BGP - 03-26-2015
Unfortunately, people in TEP at the time disagree with you about there not being a Empire of The East Pacific. East Malaysia (TEP citizen for nearly 11 years) recently stated there was the group and also the government. No matter how much you post on the matter, you're not going to change what history has shown.
RE: Legal Question - CoI for Evil Wolf - Unibot - 03-26-2015
(03-26-2015, 11:29 AM)BGP Wrote: Unfortunately, people in TEP at the time disagree with you about there not being a Empire of The East Pacific. East Malaysia (TEP citizen for nearly 11 years) recently stated there was the group and also the government. No matter how much you post on the matter, you're not going to change what history has shown.
Purely historical revisionism - The Empire was a group, mostly of outside players from other GCRs, who couped The East Pacific and tried to develop a local government that suited their interests. They did not advertise themselves as "a Empire of The East Pacific," they were an organisation called The Empire - as you can see from ASBS's own testimony.
In 2011, UDL Intelligence recovered a list of names of those who had had been a member of The Empire in its Imperial Council - this was a body of experienced coupers and military and political gameplayers who were attempting to coup The East Pacific and implement and organise a new sovereign power in The East Pacific.
Evil Wolf was a member of this inner sanctum, as the info suggests...
Quote:I know a lot about the Empire mainly because I had a spy in their Imperial Council. The following were members of the Imperial Council:
Lady Phedre - Neenee
Lord Rahl - Biyah
Lady Anastasia - Dalimbar
High Priest Rashidi - Darth Zorn
Lady Edea - Der Fuhrer Deizel (sp)
Lady Tisiphone - Whamabama
Darksied - Ivan Moldavi
ChuckNorris - Enegro Montoya
Condition 13 - Blue Wolf
Helios - Agamemnon
The Black Necromancer - Westwind
Non-Council members of the Empire included Lord Griffin (New Kervoskia) and Spydude (yy4u of the West Pacific).
Here he was unmasked as "Condition 13" - his code-name.
You'll note from the membership that this was an outside group - mostly made of high profile TNPers, TWPers and former ADNers - an organisation which tried and failed to form a sovereign state in The East Pacific. They however never did become the legitimate power in The East Pacific in the sense that the New Pacific Order is in The Pacific today. As we can see in the historical archives, their leadership was highly contested by natives like A Slanted Black Stripe and they voluntarily left The East Pacific - some of its members stuck with The Empire and followed them to TRR and Osiris and onwards, and some of its members parted ways (like Moldavi and potentially Blue Wolf), but this was nonetheless an organisation.
One thing that may be overlooked here is that discontinuity plays a large role in The Empire's own image-making; they often contest the very idea of 'The Empire' - sometimes they questioned whether The Empire has even continued to exist past 2008, othertimes they try to draw a discontinuity between The Empire in 2008 and The Empire in 2013, solely for convenience. Having a 'name' to the identify people like The Empire, rarely works in their favour, so they will often dispute the attribution and stress the historical discontinuities. While at other times, they'll gladly fly the Empire flag, use their code-name and admit there is a continued legacy present for the purposes of rattling cages or engendering fear or respect. The Empire has always been an organised conspiracy between players that is transregional - their members are aware of the difficult position that that puts it critics in identifying them and admonishing them because informal organisations - personal linkages with common private interests - can be dismissed colloquially even with evidence as rants and ravings.
With this in mind, I beg the court to take a 'grain of salt' with those who stress the discontinuities within The Empire. If the argument had been the other way, members of The Empire would have gladly argued the opposite: that The Empire died in 2008 and it hasn't been a formal organisation since. Whatever discontinuity is convenient will be what they espouse. All I can do to disprove these claims is to show historical primary research that reveal how and in what ways The Empire conceptualized itself when Evil Wolf was a member.
RE: Legal Question - CoI for Evil Wolf - southern bellz - 03-26-2015
Unibot, come on.
RE: Legal Question - CoI for Evil Wolf - Wolf - 03-26-2015
This is getting kinda sad now.
We have present members of The East Pacific stating that there was absolutely a difference and that The Empire of The East Pacific was a government, and that's still not enough for Unibot.
I'd think citizens of The East Pacific, above all else, would know if The Empire Of The East Pacific existed as a government in their own region or not.
Unibot is asking us to please ignore those people from TEP and believe him instead.
RE: Legal Question - CoI for Evil Wolf - Xoriet - 03-26-2015
It's okay, Wolf, Unibot was obviously there and he knows more about The Empire of The East Pacific than the people who fought the coup itself did.
I bring to you a quote from The East Pacifican archives by one of those present at the time that demonstrates that The Empire of the East Pacific was a specific regime - and recognized as one:
"I'd personally suggest allowing every member of the former regime to start over. Prosecuting these people will do no good whilst taking up a lot of time."
- Free Pacific States
It was a point of time in history. Each coup has been a specific incident, and different people have joined for the purpose and duration of different coups. Wasn't Earth in The Osiris Empire? Is Earth still in The Empire? Wolf parted from The Empire during the TEP incident, and Earth parted from The Empire after her stint in an Osiran regime.
What's the difference between Earth and Wolf to you? By your logic, you had a member of The Empire in UDL.
RE: Legal Question - CoI for Evil Wolf - Unibot - 03-26-2015
On the contrary, The Empire did act as a regime - it formed an illegitimate government. But "The Empire of The East Pacific" is an anachronism. It was 'The Empire' - a transregional organisation of elite folk who thought they'd run The East Pacific better than the locals. Some of whom have localised now. It was and is an organisation with its own internal rites of passage and codes of membership, however informal. It needed to be disclosed on Wolf's CoI.
Quote:Wasn't Earth in The Osiris Empire? Is Earth still in The Empire? Wolf parted from The Empire during the TEP incident, and Earth parted from The Empire after her stint in an Osiran regime.
What's the difference between Earth and Wolf to you? By your logic, you had a member of The Empire in UDL.
For someone who is complaining about me not doing my research, you haven't done a whole helluva lot of it yourself: we had multiple members of The Empire in UDL - Biyah, Dalimbar, Agamemnon and New Kervoskia at one time or another. I was not always enthusiastic about their membership in the UDL - and Earth invited most of them to join the UDL. I ultimately removed Biyah personally from the UDL. I didn't have full control over the UDL despite myths surrounding the UDL and I would have faced internal pressures to remove the entirety of The Empire from the UDL, let alone Earth if she had been a member.
With regards to Earth, I made specific promises to her to not spread about private information, but I can say without breaking that confidentiality, that I often had suspected she was a member of The Empire and that The Empire was conducting an induction of several new members into The Empire during the time in which The Empire was focusing its attention on Osiris.
Ultimately, it's totally irrelevant whether the UDL had Empire members in it, or whether Earth was a member of The Empire - all that matters is that IF Earth was a member of The Empire, Earth should have declared The Empire on her CoI if she did run in The South Pacific. That's the only thing that is relevant to this legal case.
RE: Legal Question - CoI for Evil Wolf - Wolf - 03-26-2015
(03-26-2015, 02:55 PM)Unibot Wrote: On the contrary, The Empire did act as a regime - it formed an illegitimate government.
Ah, so you agree with me that The Empire of The East Pacific was a government. Good, glad we have that settled.
So, again, regional governments, even illegitimate ones, do not need to be cited on CoI's and I did put down that I was involved in The East Pacific.
This question has thus been rendered irrelevant.
RE: Legal Question - CoI for Evil Wolf - Xoriet - 03-26-2015
But indeed, Earth is not the point of this. She is simply part of my argument, that she was a member of The Empire within the Osiris term. The specific and relevant point I am contesting here is your insistence that membership in The Empire of The East Pacific is membership in The Empire as a separate and individual organization. The Empire consists of a core group - an organization. Wolf has said that he was in The East Pacific Empire.
![[+]](/images/collapse_collapsed.png "[+]")
Regarding EarthYou personally do not recognize it as a government and thus do not acknowledge that Wolf was honest in stating that he was in The Empire specifically within The East Pacific. I and others have provided you evidence by the natives of The East Pacific that the regime was legitimate. This is contributory to Wolf stating that he was only in the Empire of The East Pacific.
Empire's individual coups may have been initiated by the usual main members, but each had members specifically for that specific coup government. His statement is not a lie because he was in the government under The Empire in The East Pacific. He was not involved in the organization's future activities. Nor should this tiny little point be such an issue, because what Wolf stated was what Wolf sees as the honest truth.
If the players within the region which was couped during that time agreed with your insistence that The Empire of The East Pacific was simply The Empire sitting around there, they would not be repeatedly disagreeing with you. Your arguments are that your perception is the only correct one, and imply that those who have stated otherwise are guilty of historical revisionism.
RE: Legal Question - CoI for Evil Wolf - Darkstrait - 03-26-2015
*yawns*
The way I'm seeing it, Unibot has found legitimate evidence to prove his point, while Wolf and the others only cite examples of others--- not relevant to the discussion, as these others were never involved in TSP--- or wave it off as "the past is the past", which is one of the most bullshit arguments ever.