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+----- Thread: Charter Ammendment - Ideals and Principles (/thread-608.html)
RE: Charter Ammendment - Ideals and Principles - God-Emperor - 06-12-2014
So do imperialist regions. :ninja:
Charter Ammendment - Ideals and Principles - Kris Kringle - 06-12-2014
Please do name our enemies. I would love to know who they are.
RE: Charter Ammendment - Ideals and Principles - sandaoguo - 06-12-2014
(06-12-2014, 04:04 PM)Belschaft Wrote: R/D is arbitrary military gameplay in random UCR regions. Raiders seize a random founderless region, defenders try to take it off them. There is no reason for military gameplay to be organized on such a basis. The tools are common, the way they are used isn't. An independent region defends its allies and attacks its enemies.
There's a very obvious reason why "military gameplay [is] organized on such a basis." It's the only way to do "military gameplay." Aside from raiding or defending, there is literally nothing else.
So when you want to say "TSP should only defend its allies and attack it's enemies," don't say "the key objective is to explicitly remove us from R/D." Because defending an ally is still defending, and attacking an enemy is still raiding. Just because you call it something else doesn't change what it is. You won't go to the UDL or FRA for help attacking an enemy, and you won't going to the UIAF for help defending an ally.
That's all very much beside the point, because it assumes TSP actually has enemies anyways. The only "enemy" we have is a Nazi coalition, in a war that several other military forces has declared a victory against GGR. There are no other boogeymen in NS to attack without controversy. Nobody is going to attack TSP, either, anytime soon. So the SPSF, if it's going to be active, is going to either raid random regions or defend random regions. Like all military forces in NS do. And like all other "Independent" forces, there's going to be some made up justification for how this random region is particularly in TSP's interests, or nobody's going to bother asking the question at all in the first place. "Defending our allies and attacking our enemies" an empty phrase, and not least because it's something everybody of all ideologies advocates.
Edit: Scratch that, we have two enemies. Gatesville is also a "enemy," though Gatesville doesn't even really exist anymore.
RE: Charter Ammendment - Ideals and Principles - God-Emperor - 06-12-2014
Since when do defenders advocate attackin' their enemies?
Charter Ammendment - Ideals and Principles - Kris Kringle - 06-12-2014
Time to make another poster.
RE: Charter Ammendment - Ideals and Principles - Belschaft - 06-12-2014
(06-12-2014, 04:08 PM)Kris Kringle Wrote: Please do name our enemies. I would love to know who they are.TSP is in a declared state of war against Gatesville and the Greater German Reich, and is a signatory of a treaty of coalition against the GGR and any regions that provide them with "comfort", which includes a variety of other far right groups.
RE: Charter Ammendment - Ideals and Principles - sandaoguo - 06-12-2014
(06-12-2014, 04:16 PM)God-Emperor Wrote: Since when do defenders advocate attackin' their enemies?
Since always? What defender region has ever had a policy of sitting by passively while their enemies are attacking them? Who, as a defender in TSP, has ever said that we shouldn't attack our enemies? Being defender doesn't preclude going to war with an enemy.
RE: Charter Ammendment - Ideals and Principles - Belschaft - 06-12-2014
(06-12-2014, 04:12 PM)Sandaoguo Wrote:We have collaborated with our ally UIAF on a number of defensive operations, most notably in Osiris.(06-12-2014, 04:04 PM)Belschaft Wrote: R/D is arbitrary military gameplay in random UCR regions. Raiders seize a random founderless region, defenders try to take it off them. There is no reason for military gameplay to be organized on such a basis. The tools are common, the way they are used isn't. An independent region defends its allies and attacks its enemies.You won't go to the UDL or FRA for help attacking an enemy, and you won't going to the UIAF for help defending an ally.
Neither the FRA or UDL is an ally of TSP, and yet we have worked with both groups on multiple occasions. As both are defender organizations that do not recognize the sovereign right of regions to launch offensive operations, such collaboration as you suggest would be impossible.
RE: Charter Ammendment - Ideals and Principles - Belschaft - 06-12-2014
(06-12-2014, 04:22 PM)Sandaoguo Wrote:Actually, both UDL and FRA reject the concept entirely. Of the big three defender groups only TITO endorses offensive action.(06-12-2014, 04:16 PM)God-Emperor Wrote: Since when do defenders advocate attackin' their enemies?
Since always? What defender region has ever had a policy of sitting by passively while their enemies are attacking them? Who, as a defender in TSP, has ever said that we shouldn't attack our enemies? Being defender doesn't preclude going to war with an enemy.
RE: Charter Ammendment - Ideals and Principles - sandaoguo - 06-12-2014
(06-12-2014, 04:29 PM)Belschaft Wrote: Actually, both UDL and FRA reject the concept entirely. Of the big three defender groups only TITO endorses offensive action.
The UDL and the FRA are defender interregional organizations, rather than defender regions. There's also Lazarus, Wintreath, Spiritus, and TRR, off the top of my head. If they had enemies that could be directly attacked, and there was a declared war, then I would be surprised if they didn't do it when the perfect opportunity arose. As far as I'm aware, the only one of those regions at war with somebody is TRR against TNI, and TNI has a founder. So "attack" for these defenders groups normally means "defend against their raids," which the FRA and the UDL (and definitely Lazarus) all do, if I'm not mistaken.
The point being, of course, that nobody in TSP who identifies as a defender has ever advocated that TSP cannot declare wars against its enemies. I actually voted for the declaration of war on Gatesville. This is just a strawman argument to make ideologies other than Independence seem unreasonable.