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Dunblane and Gun Laws
#11

My position is mainly that gun ownership should not be treated as a constitutional right. Guns are dangerous instruments that have a legitimate use when owned by responsible individuals, but they are not something everyone should be entitled just because. In consequence, possession should only be allowed to people with legitimate reasons to own a firearm (say self-defence or hunting*), who have proven to be responsible (mentally and physically, through a background check and training, and acknowledgement that they'll keep their guns safe) and only with firearms proportional to their intended use (no need for assault weaponry or dispproportionate amounts of weapons).

Or course, Wolf makes a very good point that a huge part of the problem is mental health. Most people are legitimate owners, regardless of their Second Amendment views, and they just want to keep themselves or their families safe. The issue is what to do whem someone mentally unstable gets access to a gun. While complete safety is impossible, it should definitely be a priority to reduce the likelihood that (a) mentally unstable people will get access to guns, through background checks and real owners keeping their guns safe and locked, and (b) they will get appropriate and timely help, so they won't end up seeing a mass killing/suicide as their end game.

And, well, this isn't 100% related to the actual issue, but what's the deal with so many Americans and their gun culture? I've never really understood it. Over here it's really uncommon to see someone own a gun. Sure, criminals have them, but even then it's just not something you'd normally do, buying a gun. It'd actually be very unnerving if someone I knew did it, and I think it's similar in other countries, how guns aren't a "constitutional right" or anything like that.

* Even though I personally don't agree with recreational hunting.
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#12

America really needs to cut down on gun lanership dramatically. Back when my parents lived there for work (this was in 2000 so things have probably changed now), they were living in Arizona. Several people at the company they were working at kept warning them to not do all these things or they'll just get shot. For instance one of the guys said to never ever honk your horn (which was pretty hard because that's all we do over here because, terrible drivers) or they'll just turn and shoot you. Even on the news there was gun violence every night, many just a few streets away.
This is just a tiny insight to what they experienced but yeah.
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#13

(03-17-2016, 11:29 PM)Wolf Wrote: Ok, so I'm going to be the voice of dissent on this issue.

As easy as it is to say that "guns kill people, therefore no guns ever", there is something fundamentally bullshit about this argument.

Yes, it is true that America has the most guns, in fact per capital America has 112.6 guns per 100 residents, which means we literally have more guns than people. And if gun ownership means more violence just by the nature of guns existing, then America should be the most violent, gun-murdery country on the whole planet, right?

Wrong.

Actually we're not even in the top ten of total firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population per year. In fact, we're not even in the top fifteen when the subject is narrowed to homicides per 100,000 population per year.

So how is it that we have all these mass shootings even if our gun related fatality rate does not reflect the rate of gun ownership in the US? Well, for that answer you're going to have to look at what category the US is #1 in with respect to firearm fatalities.

Suicide.

The United States of America has the highest firearm assisted suicide rate of any country in the entire world and the reason for this is because we do a terrible job keeping guns out of the hands of mentally unstable people. And I think we'd all agree that, by and large, the perpetrators of gun massacres are people who can be classified as mentally unstable. So it's not so much that America has a "gun problem" as it is we have a mental health problem, and adding guns to crazy is a bad mix. That being said, gun related homicides have gone down 49% since 1993 while mass shootings have increased.

In essence, mass shootings, while unfortunate, can be combated by keeping these weapons out of the hands of, not everyday average citizens, but people with a history of mental disorders. I'm a big supporter of making sure mentally unfit people do not own firearms. And maybe, while we're at it, it will help decrease the suicide rate too.

This is the argument every pro-gun person brings up and it could not be further from the truth. "The majority of people with mental disorders do not engage in violence against others." "Fewer than 5% of 120,000 gun-related killings were perpetrated by people diagnosed with mental illness." "Adults with mental illness are more likely to be victims than perpetrators of community violence."
 
Over 60% of American's believe that owning a gun will make their lives safer but the truth is it increases the likelihood of homicide, suicide and unintentional death.
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#14

First, let's look at the countries that are above the USA when it comes to deaths from firearms;

Honduras, Venezuela, Swaziland, Guatemala, Jamaica, El Salvador, Colombia, Brazil, Panama, South Africa, and Uruguay.

What do they all gave in common? Well, firstly none of them are in the developed world. To find the next first world country on the list you have to go to Switzerland, with 3.25 per 100,000 people compared to the US' 10.54 per 100,000 people. The situation is much the same when it comes to homicides. This is not a list you want your country to be on.

I can't be arsed to give this issue the time it deserves, but here's a fun fact;

In 2015 toddlers shot and killed more people in the US than terrorists.

Toddlers.
Minister of Media, Subversion and Sandwich Making
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#15

Toddlers? Wtf?
I am Zadiner/Zak. Part of Assembly, some other stuff, Founder of some other region.
Hey, I have a bunch of issues. You don't need to care.
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#16

(03-17-2016, 11:29 PM)Wolf Wrote: The United States of America has the highest firearm assisted suicide rate of any country in the entire world and the reason for this is because we do a terrible job keeping guns out of the hands of mentally unstable people.

Saying that everyone who commits suicide or attempts it is mentally unstable is a gross overgeneralization and frankly many people would find it offensive.
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#17

(03-18-2016, 10:32 PM)Zak6858 Wrote: Toddlers? Wtf?

I really wish it wasn't true, but it is is. In 2015 an average of one child under three shot someone each week - usually themselves, a sibling or a parent - and these are just the incidents that made it to the media. Who knows how many toddler shootings didn't get reported?

Consider for a moment the example of the three year old boy who shot his one year old sister in the face in Florida, or the the three year old boy in Cleveland who found a loaded high calibre pistol in a cupboard and shot himself in the head. Or the girl who picked up her fathers gun and proceeded to shoot both her parents.

......

These things do not happen anywhere else in the developed world.
Minister of Media, Subversion and Sandwich Making
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#18

(03-19-2016, 10:24 AM)Belschaft Wrote:
(03-18-2016, 10:32 PM)Zak6858 Wrote: Toddlers? Wtf?

I really wish it wasn't true, but it is is. In 2015 an average of one child under three shot someone each week - usually themselves, a sibling or a parent - and these are just the incidents that made it to the media. Who knows how many toddler shootings didn't get reported?

Consider for a moment the example of the three year old boy who shot his one year old sister in the face in Florida, or the the three year old boy in Cleveland who found a loaded high calibre pistol in a cupboard and shot himself in the head. Or the girl who picked up her fathers gun and proceeded to shoot both her parents.

......

These things do not happen anywhere else in the developed world.
The article you linked made me go off into several other ones which talked about all these seperate incidents. They are just saddening and scary.
Guns are one of the reasons I do not want to go to America. I am sure some people will fear for their life if they have to go over there.
For instance, over here only certain people can have a gun, such as farmers, people who do rifle shooting, police etc. But this is extremely regulated. I didn't even know my grandfather had a gun until a few weeks ago, when my dad was telling me about a time he had to shoot a snake (he lives on a farm, and I'm pretty sure killing most snakes are now illegal :/). The reason why I didn't know it is existed is because:
1. He can't just show people just because.
2. It's locked away in a cupboard that all the kids don't even know holds a gun.
3. He doesn't talk about it in a way that makes us curious.
Three simple steps have prevented stuff that goes on weekly in America. Hmm...
I am Zadiner/Zak. Part of Assembly, some other stuff, Founder of some other region.
Hey, I have a bunch of issues. You don't need to care.
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#19

According to the articles I've read, three seems to be the worst age for it; the child is old enough to be mobile, has sufficient dexterity to use a gun, will have been exposed to the concept of guns and know what to do with them, but not understand the consequences.
Minister of Media, Subversion and Sandwich Making
Associate Justice of the High Court and Senior Moderator

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#20

I edited my post to add a bit more.
I am Zadiner/Zak. Part of Assembly, some other stuff, Founder of some other region.
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