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Railana · 06-01-2016, 07:51 PM

As part of an amendment to the Charter I've proposed, the Assembly would be required to draft a regional law stating how the Delegate must vote on World Assembly resolutions. Before drafting such a law, I'd like to have a discussion on what people feel is the most appropriate way for TSP to use its influence in the World Assembly. How do you feel the Delegate should vote on World Assembly resolutions?

Here are a few suggestions. Should the delegate vote...

...in accordance with the regional vote?

Pros: Easy to implement. Very democratic.
Cons: Strong likelihood of voting for objectively bad resolutions, as the vast majority of TSP residents don't care about the World Assembly and simply vote the way everybody else is voting, regardless of what the resolution actually says or what anyone with experience in the WA thinks. WA regulars call this phenomenon the "lemming effect". This also allows our vote to be easily manipulated by other delegates who vote in accordance with their own interests early on.
...in accordance with a gameside poll?

Pros: Also very democratic, though it requires some positive action on the part of residents besides simply voting in the WA.
Cons: Once again, many people who vote in this poll won't really care about the World Assembly and will vote the way everybody else is voting.
...in accordance with a forum poll?

Pros: Privileges the input of those who are active in the region and who are more likely to be involved in the World Assembly. This makes it more likely that our vote is well-considered and serves our interests while remaining largely democratic.
Cons: In practice, fails to take into account the views of most TSP residents, since most aren't involved in the forumside community. (Given the lemming effect, though, do they really have any views worth considering in the first place?)
...in accordance with a recommendation issued by a hypothetical Minister for World Assembly Affairs or a World Assembly advisor?

Pros: Guarantees that our vote is determined by somebody with clear interest and (hopefully) significant experience in the World Assembly.
Cons: Not very democratic. Allows TSP's vote to be hijacked to serve the personal views or interests of the advisor.
...freely?

Pros: Easy to implement.
Cons: Also not very democratic. Allows TSP's vote to be hijacked as above. In addition, the delegate will not necessarily have any interest in the World Assembly and will just vote the way the rest of the region is voting, leading to the same problems as discussed above.

Other points to consider:

When should the Delegate vote?

For the reasons discussed above, voting very early on (preferably seconds after a resolution goes to vote, in my experience) is necessary for our vote to actually matter in practice. However, voting early on is not compatible with most of the democratic approaches above, unless a poll can be held in advance.
Who should be allowed to vote in a gameside or forum poll?

There are some points to consider in allowing those without a WA nation in TSP the right to determine how the Delegate votes. If voting is on a per-nation basis, a player could create additional nations to unfairly increase their share of the vote. Even if only citizens could vote, they would still be able to vote in any region that lacked a WA membership requirement; this would allow a single player to influence the votes of multiple delegates, which some might argue is unfair.

Railana · 06-01-2016, 08:11 PM

Personally, I recommend the forum poll approach structured as follows:

The Delegate must vote on World Assembly resolutions as soon as possible after they go to vote.
The Delegate must vote in accordance with a forum poll, which should be established as soon as possible after a proposal reaches quorum so that there is enough time to get input from the region before the proposal goes to vote.
If, for whatever reason, no forum poll exists when a resolution goes to vote, the Delegate is free to vote the way they wish until the forum poll is created.
When the forum poll is created by the Minister of World Assembly Affairs or a World Assembly advisor, he or she must issue an advisory opinion on this resolution. Nobody is obliged to vote in accordance with this recommendation.
Only residents of TSP with a World Assembly nation present in the region, including the Delegate, may vote in the forum poll. However, if a resident of TSP has their World Assembly nation engaged in official TSP military operations, they may also vote in the forum poll.
In the event of a tie, the Delegate votes in accordance with the recommendation issued by the Minister of World Assembly Affairs or a World Assembly advisor.

I think this approach combines the best of the approaches described above: democratic, resistant to outside influence, and largely determined by those with some interest or expertise in the World Assembly.

(This post was last modified: 06-01-2016, 08:12 PM by Railana.)

**Belschaft** · 06-01-2016, 08:20 PM

I'm not a fan of the vaguely elitist tone of this, and think it flies in direct opposition to current attempts to empower the in-game region.

The Lemming effect is a real thing, but it's impact is often overstated. I've also consistently found in my time in NS that GCR nations who don't participate on off-site forums are more informed and engaged than many give them credit for. I can't imagine that creating a new bureaucracy to control WA votes and disenfranchise the vast majority of TSP WA nations will be particularly popular with the region at large.

Voting in accordance with the region has been the policy of almost every Delegate in TSP's history - the exceptions usually only being on SC votes that effect foreign or security policy - and has served TSP perfectly well for thirteen years. We don't need to regulate everything, and should not be disenfranchising regional WA nations, nor stripping powers from the Delegate that only they can exercise and creating a new official to tell the Delegate what to do.

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Railana · 06-01-2016, 08:56 PM

(06-01-2016, 08:20 PM)Belschaft Wrote: The Lemming effect is a real thing, but it's impact is often overstated.

I don't agree. I've witnessed more than a hundred WA votes, almost all of them determined within the first few hours due to the lemming effect. I've even passed resolutions that would normally be deeply unpopular with NationStates's (young, predominantly left-wing) electorate simply by arranging for delegates to stack in favour early on.

I do not exaggerate when I say that large delegates and the lemming effect are essentially the only two factors that determine whether a resolution will pass.

(06-01-2016, 08:20 PM)Belschaft Wrote: I've also consistently found in my time in NS that GCR nations who don't participate on off-site forums are more informed and engaged than many give them credit for.

I'm sure that's true, but with respect, if these nations are that engaged and interested in how the region votes in the World Assembly, then they can certainly take five minutes to create an account and vote in a forum poll. If they're not willing to do that, then how interested can they be, really?

(06-01-2016, 08:20 PM)Belschaft Wrote: Voting in accordance with the region has been the policy of almost every Delegate in TSP's history - the exceptions usually only being on SC votes that effect foreign or security policy - and has served TSP perfectly well for thirteen years.

And in that time, we've had a largely dead World Assembly subforum, to my knowledge no collaboratively drafted proposals or a tradition of WA authorship by TSP residents, and overall negligible regional interest in the World Assembly. If you ask me, that's a failure on TSP's part and a strong indication that something needs to change.

The bottom line is that I think TSP should be actively trying to get people interested in this part of the game, and that's not going to happen if we simply vote the way everybody else does while preventing those who actually are interested from having some sway over how TSP interacts with the World Assembly.

(This post was last modified: 06-01-2016, 09:05 PM by Railana.)

RandomGuy199 · 06-01-2016, 09:38 PM

I agree with Bel here. If we decide WA votes through a forum-only poll, most people are going to be disenfranchised.

I would prefer keeping the system as it is, or deciding votes by polls on the gameside.

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***sandaoguo*** · 06-01-2016, 09:39 PM

I think relegating the Delegate to voting by the regional poll is a huge lost opportunity. The Cabinet should be able to utilize our Delegate's vote to increase the influence of TSP, and to shape WA law.

If we can trade our vote on a resolution for a favor, or further our power by forming voting blocs, or backing up our own resolutions with our vote, then we should.

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***Tsunamy*** · 06-01-2016, 11:48 PM

I don't like the point of this all being public and the delegate's hands being tied.

Discussion "Commend Hell" resolution involved me getting a TG telling me to pull my vote because the forum poll didn't agree with it. Not only did it ignore the votes of the region, but it was also a blatant infringement on TSP sovereignty.

I generally agree with Glen that we can do this strategically, but I think there needs to be some freedom.

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Sam111 · 06-02-2016, 09:05 AM

Let the delegate have the freedom to vote whichever way they want, whenever they want. Surely we can trust the delegate to act in the best interests of the region, and if we can't, why were they elected in the first place?

Railana · 06-03-2016, 06:56 PM

It doesn't look like there's any real consensus here, so it's probably best to stick with the status quo and let the Delegate retain control of the World Assembly vote for the time being.