No because you're overlooking the fact that is Spiritus there isn't a resistance. 

I think Glen is the only one arguing that Balder broke our treaty. That's certainly not the position of the government and/or the Assembly at the moment.

What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter if there's a resistance. We agreed to recognize a specific government under a specific constitution, or a new government enacted according to the provisions of that constitution, as the legitimate government of Spiritus. This illegal interim government and whatever new government this illegal constitutional convention will create are not what we agreed to recognize.

Basically, for me, this is about consistency and keeping our word. I don't care if we make a new treaty with Spiritus. I don't care if we help them build a better democratic government through their constitutional convention. What I do care about is that we honor our treaty commitment and not start down the rabbit hole of calling a clearly illegal government in an allied region a "legally enacted successor government" for the sake of convenience. I don't like where that could lead further down the road with a different region under different circumstances.

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This is TSP Cormac, we don't handle these things that way. Basic common sense tends to be given priority over legalistic nonsense - some of the the time, at least.

It is patently obvious that the decision to establish a new government via constitutional convention is not objectionable to the people of Spiritus, technical legality or not. It would be beyond absurd to act like this was a GCR coup, and completely inane to react diplomatically by severing relations.

My understanding is that the Cabinet and MoFA are aware of the situation and talking to Spiritus. That is more than sufficient, and the reasonable course of action.

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Who said anything about reacting like this was a GCR coup or severing relations? All I'm saying is that we should repeal the treaty, which requires neither overreaction like this is a GCR coup nor severance of relations, instead of violating the terms of the treaty.

But you keep beating that straw man. Tsu can go ahead and insinuate that I have hidden, nefarious motives on Discord some more if he'd like. I forgot this is what it's like when certain people in the South Pacific disagree with you.

(This post was last modified: 02-25-2017, 12:01 AM by Cormac.)

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Who said anything about reacting like this was a GCR coup or severing relations? All I'm saying is that we should repeal the treaty, which requires neither overreaction like this is a GCR coup nor severance of relations, instead of violating the terms of the treaty.

But you keep beating that straw man. Tsu can go ahead and insinuate that I have hidden, nefarious motives on Discord some more if he'd like. I forgot this is what it's like when certain people in the South Pacific disagree with you.

Please, Cormac, I asked if you understand why some people might be suspicious of your motives. Nothing more.

If I wanted to insinuate anything, I would ask why someone who has only been part of the Assembly for two weeks region (after pitching an earlier hissy fit in Osiris) suddenly wants to claim treaty repeal as a moral imperative. 

But, feel free to pitch yourself as the martyr, Cormac. Obviously, I'm a terrible dictator that just loves shutting down democracy.

-tsunamy
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Please, Cormac, I asked if you understand why some people might be suspicious of your motives. Nothing more.

If I wanted to insinuate anything, I would ask why someone who has only been part of the Assembly for two weeks region (after pitching an earlier hissy fit in Osiris) suddenly wants to claim treaty repeal as a moral imperative. 

But, feel free to pitch yourself as the martyr, Cormac. Obviously, I'm a terrible dictator that just loves shutting down democracy.

I've already stated why I think we should repeal the treaty, and it's because we have a treaty obligation to only recognize the Elemental Republic of Spiritus under the Constitution of Spiritus, or a legally enacted successor government. I'm saying we should repeal the treaty for the sake of consistency, keeping our word, and upholding the rule of law. I'm not out to get Spiritus. I'm not out to cause trouble for either the South Pacific or Spiritus. I just think we ought to do what we said we are going to do, whether that is convenient or not. There are ways we could do it that would not damage our relationship with Spiritus.

If, instead, you would rather go the easy route and cut corners, and recognize a clearly illegal government as a "legally enacted successor government" -- which will render that phrase meaningless in future treaties -- that's fine, make that case. That's why we're having a discussion about it. But don't ambiguously accuse me of having a hidden agenda. I don't have a hidden agenda, I just don't think we should take the easy route, make a bad decision, and set a bad precedent that could come back to bite us.

For the record, I don't think you're "a terrible dictator that just loves shutting down democracy," and I never said nor implied that. What I would like is for us to dial back the rancorous tone over what amounts to a minor disagreement in the grand scheme of things. It's neither necessary nor productive.

(This post was last modified: 02-25-2017, 03:47 PM by Cormac.)

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Let the record reflect that, with a bit of a Spiritus Founder hat on, I don't think Cormac is trying to cause any conspiracy or discord here. The legal question that is posed is a very interesting one, afterall, and I don't view this as any attempt to jeopardize TSP/Spiritus relations.

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Please, Cormac, I asked if you understand why some people might be suspicious of your motives. Nothing more.

If I wanted to insinuate anything, I would ask why someone who has only been part of the Assembly for two weeks region (after pitching an earlier hissy fit in Osiris) suddenly wants to claim treaty repeal as a moral imperative. 

But, feel free to pitch yourself as the martyr, Cormac. Obviously, I'm a terrible dictator that just loves shutting down democracy.

I've already stated why I think we should repeal the treaty, and it's because we have a treaty obligation to only recognize the Elemental Republic of Spiritus under the Constitution of Spiritus, or a legally enacted successor government. I'm saying we should repeal the treaty for the sake of consistency, keeping our word, and upholding the rule of law. I'm not out to get Spiritus. I'm not out to cause trouble for either the South Pacific or Spiritus. I just think we ought to do what we said we are going to do, whether that is convenient or not. There are ways we could do it that would not damage our relationship with Spiritus.

If, instead, you would rather go the easy route and cut corners, and recognize a clearly illegal government as a "legally enacted successor government" -- which will render that phrase meaningless in future treaties -- that's fine, make that case. That's why we're having a discussion about it. But don't ambiguously accuse me of having a hidden agenda. I don't have a hidden agenda, I just don't think we should take the easy route, make a bad decision, and set a bad precedent that could come back to bite us.

For the record, I don't think you're "a terrible dictator that just loves shutting down democracy," and I never said nor implied that. What I would like is for us to dial back the rancorous tone over what amounts to a minor disagreement in the grand scheme of things. It's neither necessary nor productive.

Whoa now, I'm not escalating this!

I raised my concerns/views in this thread and said all of three or so posts on Discord, one of which was pointed but simply a general statement on the situation. You then went on to had a debate with Bel, Escade and Omega (and possibly others) and then come back here to call me out and say that I'm strawmaning you and your argument.

Fwiw, I don't really care because this is no longer my job. Proceed how you will. 

But if you're going to come for me and call me out publicly for something I'm not doing, know that I'm not afraid to finish a fight.

-tsunamy
[forum admin]

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Other regions have not cared at all when there's a coup and there is actual opposition. Why should we bother with a decision that might not be even a coup and that no one opposes in Spiritus?

If the people wish to object and there's a crackdown, we should condemn Spiritus and keep our word. But there is no crackdown. There is no dissent either. Why should we move a finger when there is no meaningful opposition or a massive civil war?

Are we really going to sever diplomatic ties over a trivial matter that is not even problematic?

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(This post was last modified: 02-25-2017, 05:56 PM by Ryccia.)

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Why should we move a finger when there is no meaningful opposition or a massive civil war?

Because its the way that the treaty is worded. IMHO, the treaty is null and void when the "Elemental Republic of Spiritus" ceased to exist without a vote to do so by their legal government.

And, nothing against Spiritus here. My suggestion would be for the MoFA to speak to Spiritus and say "We'd love to get a new treaty done - or even revote on the old wording - once a new government is in place and stable. Until that time, we feel the need to remove the old treaty." This approach should garner the respect from them, while also showing them respect. Win Win.

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Are we really going to sever diplomatic ties over a trivial matter that is not even problematic?

That's not at all what Cormac suggested. He's saying the current treaty was signed with the "Elemental Republic of Spiritus". Since the "Elemental Republic of Spiritus" has ceased to exist, he says it would make sense to repeal the treaty, as a matter of course and to respect the law we ourselves made. If we still think there is value in a relationship with Spiritus, we can always make a new one.

If anything, it's rather appropriate, poetically speaking. "Help them in their reboot, by rebooting our relationship with a new treaty".

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