| [Treaty Proposal/PASSED] Treaty of Capricorn (with The Pacific) |
(03-11-2018, 12:03 PM)Tsunamy Wrote:(03-11-2018, 11:59 AM)sandaoguo Wrote: The Cabinet should be honest with the Assembly about what this alliance means for TSP. There will be consequences for us. While I'm gung-ho about forming a bloc against the Indy/imp/raider sphere, I'd prefer the Assembly go into it knowing that's what they're doing. Rather than the Cabinet trying to pull the wool over the eyes by saying allying with the NPO is no biggie and has nothing to do with external affairs. Take the antagonism we've been getting already and multiply it by 100. Take our reputation and "tarnish" it (according to our enemies) by allying with the shadiest GCR of them all. We'll likely be connected further to conspiracies to infiltrate and take over other regions, because that's what the NPO has done many times in the past. If you've been concerned with our image in NS already, allying with the NPO is basically doubling down on it. It will certainly be seen as a provocative move by our enemies, because that's exactly what it is. This Cabinet and the previous one didn't go into this innocently, just wanting better relations with all Pacifics. It's all about NPO's military power, to stave off threats to our sovereignty with the NPO's updater and piling forces. (As Roavin hinted at above.) While Tim may be fronting that it's all completely unrelated to the strategic maneuvering in NSGP-- I'll just say that's a misrepresentation/PR move and point out my titles in government right now. As for our current alliances, I'm entirely unsure how they will react. I doubt their thoughts have been sought, because of how tight the secrecy requirements were for this treaty negotiation. (And with respect to Roavin, while I *understand* the need for secrecy, it is different than other treaties. They don't usually come out of nowhere!) They have better relations with defender regions than with Independents, imperialists, and raiders. TNP would be my biggest point of concern, just because of how many Indys have migrated there. But again, I genuinely don't know. Basically, this is in the same caliber of FA moves as our treaties with TRR/Laz were. It's most likely going to be a turning point in our place in NSGP. TRR/Laz led to our separation from the Independent-imperialist sphere, and was the origin point for our hostilities with TNI, Balder, Osiris, and Europeia (just to name the regions we used to be allied with). An alliance with the NPO will double down on that, and possibly impact our existing alliances in ways I'm not fully sure of. That being said, I do think it's worth doubling down against our enemies. We've sat by idly for far too long, with too many TSPers thinking that doing nothing is the best response. The NPO has a strong and huge army, if need be. I'd rather they be on our side than on our enemies'. I simply think the Cabinet should own up to what the purpose of this alliance actually is.
I don't think this will be such a turning point - the regions that may be pissed off by this are already not allied to us (unlike your TRR/Laz situation), and are themselves allied (multilaterally through SovAcc) to the NPO. So I don't really see your argument there.
As for me personally: I think it's good either way to be allied to them, and if it pisses off Balder in the process, that's a very pleasant side-effect! ![[Image: XXPV74Y.png?1]](https://i.imgur.com/XXPV74Y.png?1)
(03-11-2018, 02:33 PM)Roavin Wrote: I don't think this will be such a turning point - the regions that may be pissed off by this are already not allied to us (unlike your TRR/Laz situation), and are themselves allied (multilaterally through SovAcc) to the NPO. So I don't really see your argument there. Have TNP, TRR and TEP been consulted? (Not to discount our other alliances, but these are the three most active in GCR politics.)
-tsunamy
[forum admin]
(03-11-2018, 02:33 PM)Roavin Wrote: I don't think this will be such a turning point - the regions that may be pissed off by this are already not allied to us (unlike your TRR/Laz situation), and are themselves allied (multilaterally through SovAcc) to the NPO. So I don't really see your argument there. Roavin, come on. Stop this downplaying. You know full well that aligning with the NPO will mark a shift in NSGP alliances. The relationships between NPO and other SovAcc members is poor and allying with us will have real consequences there. Much more will change for the NPO than for us, but they’re already fairly isolated anyways. Again, I’m left confused as to why the Cabinet isn’t owning up to what it intends. I tried to tell this to the region in my campaign, being aware of what was in the works in FA but unable to reveal it without breaking confidentiality. TSPers should be aware of what they’re getting into, and the Cabinet shouldn’t try to make it seem like something else. There’s a purpose behind this alliance, and it’s not “we’ve done festivals together!” NPO was viewed as a threat not too long ago. No Cabinet is going to hitch our wagon to the NPO, given their entire history, without having a good reason. Just be open about the reason! TSP is at the center of the modern NSGP conflict, with Osiris/Balder/TWP leading the charge, and we need to form a bloc of our own to counteract. That’s far more compelling than sweeping all the negatives of the NPO under the rug just because we’ve done some Discord events together. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
(03-12-2018, 05:49 AM)sandaoguo Wrote: Roavin, come on. Stop this downplaying. You know full well that aligning with the NPO will mark a shift in NSGP alliances. The relationships between NPO and other SovAcc members is poor and allying with us will have real consequences there. Much more will change for the NPO than for us, but they’re already fairly isolated anyways. You're fully right, it will likely mark a shift - but not for us! We are set in our niche and this isn't going to drag us out of it. It's likely to drag the NPO, who are ostensibly not happy with their SovAcc partners, away from them, and given that the SovAcc peeps are (with the exception of the NPO) all basically our enemies, I see this as a good thing (as do you). (03-12-2018, 05:49 AM)sandaoguo Wrote: Again, I’m left confused as to why the Cabinet isn’t owning up to what it intends. I tried to tell this to the region in my campaign, being aware of what was in the works in FA but unable to reveal it without breaking confidentiality. TSPers should be aware of what they’re getting into, and the Cabinet shouldn’t try to make it seem like something else. More than just Discord events, but I digress - I don't see why it can't be all of the above. We've done culture collab, military collab, intelligence collab, and we get along very well. This is a good reason for an alliance. In a FA-discussion with Escade about a year ago, when I first mentioned NPO to her, I said "If instead we make a nice and clean [...] bilateral with NPO, we get better security with less baggage and problems". That's a bit more candid than I'd say that in other settings, but you get the gist. This is also a good reason for an alliance. And finally, the other SovAcc signatories left are TWP (who hate us) and Balder (who really hate us). Doing something to help bring NPO closer to us interregionally, as Atlantica stated, is also a good reason for an alliance (I'm agreeing with you here), no matter if it's explicitly intended (as you would have) or if it's just a pleasant side-effect (as in Tim's case).
This all seems like great logic and reasoning to me.
Again, I'd like to return to my previous point that none of our existing alliances will be threatened by this, correct?
-tsunamy
[forum admin]
We'll be pissing off Balder and the entire Sovereignty Accords bloc? Great! Let's sign this treaty already!
The less allies they have, the better. Let's sway them out of that bloc and make their relations with them outright irreparable. I'll throw my controversy non-democracy complaining to the trash. Let's just piss off Balder.
Deputy Regional Minister of the Planning and Development Agency(March 8-May 19, 2014)
Local Council Member(April 24-August 11) Court Justice of TSP(August 15-December 7)
(03-12-2018, 10:29 AM)Tsunamy Wrote: This all seems like great logic and reasoning to me. We haven't reached out to them, but I don't see a reason why they would be threatened:
So, I think we'll be fine.
Moot point here, but Id like to actually talk about the treaty...
Article 7 ... Can we discuss a length that the treaty be suspended before we have to approach them with dissolution? 3 months? 6 months? A year?
"...if you're normal, the crowd will accept you. But if you're deranged, the crowd will make you their leader." - Christopher Titus
Deranged in NS since 2011 One and ONLY minion of LadyRebels The OUTRAGEOUS CRAZY other half of LadyElysium
Well, keeping it suspended for a year would be absurd and I doubt either party would let that stand, but I (personally) wouldn't be blanket opposed to a limit here.
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