| RE: Administrative Interaction With Unibot |
(08-01-2018, 10:14 AM)Ryccia Wrote: You are all idiots Please don’t flame. You are perfectly capable of making a point without insulting users of this forum. Former Delegate of the South Pacific
Posts outside High Court venues should be taken as those of any other legislator. I do not participate in the regional server, but I am happy to talk through instant messaging or on the forum. Legal Resources: THE MATT-DUCK Law Archive | Mavenu Diplomatic Archive | Rules of the High Court | Case Submission System | Online Rulings Consultation System (08-01-2018, 10:14 AM)Ryccia Wrote: I don't care on whatever toxic sludgefest anyone is trying to engage in right now, because I, and many others, cannot stop you from making a scene. All I can say is this: don't associate with literal sexual predators.As far as I can tell, the community is safe, Ryccia, and I fully trust that it will remain so. The question before the Assembly is, essentially, whether or not our high-ranking and admin officials should be allowed to choose their own acquaintances, particularly with those figures we deem to be of concern, outside of the region. Personally, I believe that it is their decision and it is their conscience that it must ultimately weigh the morality of that. Relationships of any kind are complex and, ultimately, a private right of the individual and I certainly don't see it as my place to deny such. Strongly recommend against it? Perhaps. But forbid it? Really? These individuals know who they are involved with and they also know their responsibilities to this region and have shown that they take such seriously. That is enough for me. Take things any further and I worry we turn this into nothing less than a witch hunt. I mean, I'm still in contact with Sam at times because he's shown genuine contrition and is still my friend. He's been listed in this debate several times alongside Unibot, however, so am I suddenly to be demonised for that contact? If so, then I would have to genuinely question my desire to remain part of a community that so willingly tears down and destroys its own. Sent from my SM-J320FN using Tapatalk Founder of the Church of the South Pacific [Forum Thread] [Discord], a safe place to discuss spirituality for people of all faiths and none (currently looking for those interested in prayer and/or "home" groups);
And The Silicon Pens [Discord], a writer's group for the South Pacific and beyond! Yahweo usenneo ir varleo, ihraneo jurlaweo hraseu seu, ir jiweveo arladi. Salma 145:8
(08-01-2018, 12:11 PM)Seraph Wrote: I mean, I'm still in contact with Sam at times because he's shown genuine contrition and is still my friend. He's been listed in this debate several times alongside Unibot, however, so am I suddenly to be demonised for that contact? I don't think it's a comparable situation, honestly. Sam111 ultimately isn't constantly trying to re-integrate himself back in the game, isn't (I hope) regularly making various excuses and deflections regarding his behavior, and isn't still operating in a space that lets him ultimately continue his previous behavior. Furthermore, you're not a Regional Administrator tasked with ensuring our OOC safety isn't compromised. Unibot is regularly trying to re-integrate himself back in the game, continues to make excuses and deflections regarding his behavior (including claiming it was all an IC-motivated plot, and more recently he was hacked, then claiming he had memory loss from drug use when hacking got disproven, and consistently claiming a lot of it was a misunderstanding), and has shown behavior that is consistent with the actions that have him blacklisted from our communities. This is the same type of dangerous behavior we have seen many harassers undertake in attempts to re-integrate, but none have persisted for as long as Unibot - something which makes him even more concerning. While it is ultimately our Admin's Team right to choose their affiliations, that doesn't mean that we, as the community they're in charge of protecting, can't express serious concern and outrage regarding their close affiliation with such an individual. This is especially a factor of consideration considering Unibot's consistent attempts to re-integrate into NS, and the potential likelihood that he could curry sentiments with less-informed players by pointing out facts like 3/4 of TSP's Admin Team being friendly and hanging out with him.
So, I made the time to go over the huge fight in Discord and my views are such;
1. Some of the rhetoric and hyperbole expressed has been excessive, somewhat abusive and harmful. Hence why the Discord mod team put the people in question on a timeout. 2. This private server and the friendship with Unibot of members of the admin team is not in anyway subject to the Assembly or TSP, though I can see grounds to discuss it. 3. Those in positions of responsibility should consider their actions and associations carefully, as they inevitably impact on TSP. Close association with a player banned from TSP for sexual harassment and emotional abuse of female players is not in any way appropriate, and is certainly inadvisable. 4. If you don't think this is the case, I suggest you reconsider. Close association by someone in a position of responsibility here and players proscribed/banned from the region for GP reasons would certainly be cause for concern; it is absolutely the same if the player in question has been banned for conduct/non-GP reasons. Minister of Media, Subversion and Sandwich Making
Associate Justice of the High Court and Senior Moderator ![[Image: B9ytUsy.png]](https://i.imgur.com/B9ytUsy.png)
This is probably not the best venue to have this discussion, and definitely not a good environment or context. Despite my strong skepticism in Tim’s interest in having a meaningful discussion on this topic, I do think it is time for me to put my feelings to words. I’ve been reluctant to participate in discussions like this, because the ulterior motive has always been character assassination and the topic comes up conveniently in the middle of unrelated arguments. I’ve also lacked the vocabulary to put my thoughts down, but like many others, the #MeToo movement has helped me build that vocabulary. So, I’m going to try my best, and give this topic the length it deserves.
Tsunamy banned Unibot from the forum on February 20, 2016. My history with Unibot goes back to the summer of 2008, when we were semi-allies/semi-rivals in the World Assembly. When he got involved in the R/D game, he tried to get me to join in with him, but it wasn’t my cup of tea. I nominally joined the United Defenders League and did side work on the “academic” front. We worked together the closest in TSP, when I was Minister of Foreign Affairs. This was in 2015 and it’s where a lot of the “Glen-Rhodes and Unibot are a hivemind” and “Glen-Rhodes and Unibot are turning TSP defender” memes come from. After the allegations of sexual harassment came to our (TSP admins) attention, my interactions with Unibot were more irregular. He knew I recused myself from the decision to ban him, which was effectively a vote in favor of it. I didn’t really know what to think at the time. There’s this tendency among the more involved Gameplay-type players to assume that everybody knows everything they do. But the reality is that a lot of us avoided that circle of players and were generally oblivious to what was considered “common knowledge” to them. At the time, I did not know what the allegations were, beyond the vague descriptor of “sexual harassment.” The environment in which people made these allegations was also incredibly bad. My context of the environment was extremely negative—I had seen Unibot’s mental and physical health exploited in attempts to get him to quit defending. I was subjected to regular attacks of the “defender conspiracy” nature by the same group of players that were making the allegations public. I was not alone, by a long shot, in wondering how much of the complaints were shrouds for political ulterior motives. Extreme rhetoric was (and remains) a problem in the game, which warped any true sense of scale and seriousness. In all of that context, Kris and I were explicitly barred from seeing the evidence that was being passed around to other NS community admins. We were asked to ban someone we had known for years, based on allegations we didn’t fully understand, and evidence we were prohibited from seeing. If we had seen the evidence, perhaps the ban would’ve been issued unanimously. So that is the history of my relationship with Unibot from 2008 up to his ban in 2016. When he appealed his ban a month later, I voted against even considering the appeal. While I still hadn’t seen any evidence, Tsu had convinced me that it warranted a ban. Last year, I rewrote our forum rules to be stronger on sexual harassment and made it clear that we can and will ban players based on activity outside of the forums. That is the context in which I write the rest of this post. Setting aside the probability that this thread simply a weapon to run a wedge between the community and Tim’s political (and personal) foes, the vision here of how we respond in the long term to sexual harassment is one I find problematic. We should consider this issue in a step removed from the particularities of NationStates-the-game and talk in terms of the real world and the very real societal discussion we’re having about the same issue. Can somebody who committed sexual harassment ever rehabilitate or redeem themselves? How much of a punishment is necessary, and how long must that punishment last? Is it ever acceptable to interact with these people? Those who have talked to me about my personal life, or those lucky few who know my real name and follow me on social media, know that I am a strong believer in social justice. I deeply, deeply believe in the necessity of rehabilitation and, if not redemption or reconciliation, forgiveness. These ideas are core to my personal values and how I choose to live in the world. (While it might not seem that way in the context of playing this game, there is a difference between playing a game and taking actions with very real consequences in the real world.) I oppose the death penalty, even for those facing it that I’m connected to personally. I oppose over-incarceration. I believe overly broad sex offender registries cause more harm than good in society, in the forms of recidivism and homelessness. In my personal life, I have been in unhealthy relationships (romantic, platonic, and familial), but have been willing to reconcile with those who have the will to change. I have had friends who have done bad things, accepted responsibility and the consequences that go along with them, and turned out to be genuinely good people. I don’t want to reveal too much about my personal life here. But this is all to say that my ideals, my whole real-life ethical and moral system, would crumble without the belief that people can rehabilitate themselves, change themselves, and rise above their past mistakes. That redemption does not come automatically. It’s not a matter of saying five Hail Mary’s and being welcomed back in with open arms. It requires accountability and reparation. Even then, some punishments are permanent. In determining what counts as true, honest reparation, I believe we have to actually discern the various levels of misconduct. Unibot is guilty of sexual harassment in the past—this is unquestionable. But that is not rape. It is not assault. Sexual harassment is bad, but the extreme rhetoric being applied here does not match what I know to be the facts of his case. Rapists and pedophiles are predators. Men who build institutions to basically factory-line themselves women to sexually assault are predators. A young adult who engaged in an unhealthy and harmful online relationship nearly 5 years ago is not the embodiment of Harvey Weinstein. We need to discuss these issues without the bombastic rhetoric. It doesn’t help anybody. Judgement in the court of public opinion feels great at first, but it is an empty justice that resolves nothing in the long term. When we banned Sam for his behavior, which was by all accounts emotionally disturbing, we believed in the necessity of rehabilitation and we didn’t adopt the most punitive, unempathetic punishment we could. I haven't cut Unibot out of my life, though the extent of our interaction is being exaggerated. We talk maybe once every other month-- sometimes he's offering unsolicited advice or a remark on NS politics, sometimes he's offering his condolences when he hears something bad has happened in my personal life. I haven’t cut Unibot out of my life because I do believe that his personal rehabilitation is possible. That does not mean I believe he should ever be let back into TSP, or that he deserves a “reward” for changing and should be vaulted back into the power he once held in the game. Some punishments are permanent. His ejection from the communities he was once involved in is necessary in order to make room for those he hurt. As I said on Discord, his ban will never be lifted. He is not seeking to appeal it, either, contrary to the misinformation spread by Tim and Escade yesterday. I don’t feel comfortable with the logic that extends from Tim’s demands, and I don’t think that makes me (or those who also feel uncomfortable) a bad person. Taken to its logical conclusion, Unibot should be socially isolated and shunned. Nobody should talk to him or acknowledge his existence, from now until the end of time. But Unibot is a human being who exists in real life. Should we apply this standard there, too? Do perpetrators of sexual harassment deserve to be condemned to a life of social isolation, unemployment, homelessness, friendlessness, without family, without empathy? I don’t believe so, and that’s not a world I want to live in. That is a world devoid of redemption. That is a world where we punish in extremes without abandon. Tim said, both on Discord and in this thread, that Unibot is a danger to the community, so much so that the whole community is endangered by those interacting with him outside of it. But we are all human beings who exist in the real world, as well. What is a danger to us is necessarily a danger to those who interact with Unibot in the real world, under this logic and rhetoric. If we believe this, what are our moral and ethical obligations? Do we doxx Unibot? Do we tell his parents, his real-world friends? His employer? If we aren’t obligated to do that, then what is the difference between the community of TSP and the community of his real-life neighborhood? Our words have consequences. We have all seen what happens when we don’t temper our rhetoric in relation to the actual severity and seriousness of the issue. This happens all over the internet, where people’s lives are ruined based on a frenzied court of public opinion whipping itself up enough to spill beyond their corner of the internet. Unibot is banned from TSP. That is never going to change. Despite what some here want to believe, both the forum and Discord admin teams are dedicated to providing a safe community. On this issue, we have. Interactions with Unibot outside of TSP do not affect this community, no more than do interactions with Sam. Or, for that matter, the numerous unsavory characters throughout the game that aren’t dealt with because OOC misconduct bans tend to only be applied to misconduct sexual in nature, despite non-sexual behavior being harmful as well. While I understand the worry about scenarios where Unibot could “curry sentiments” with inexperienced players by touting his relationships throughout the game, it is simply not happening. Nor is it something any TSP admin would ever let happen. It’s a made-up scenario, where we exist in a reality that Unibot is banging at the walls of TSP and trying to find any crack to enter. He is not. One of the disadvantages of cutting someone out is not knowing what they’re doing, what they’re thinking, or how they’ve changed. Unibot knows what he did nearly 5 years ago was wrong. He admits it and accepts responsibility. He accepts his punishment. He has not tried to appeal his ban in 2 years, and he is not trying to appeal it now. He has told people repeatedly not to defend him by trying to cast doubt on the evidence or say that he’s innocent. That is not the behavior someone who is “regularly trying to re-integrate himself” back into the region. Does he still want to play NationStates? Yes, he does. Is he trying to join places, get elected to offices, muscle himself into positions of leadership? No. The claims being made in this thread are fearmongering and aren’t borne out in reality. Furthermore, there are quite a few figures in NS Gameplay who still do talk to Unibot from time to time—more than Tim would probably like to hear, and beyond those who are considered his “friends”—and they are just as dedicated to keeping their communities safe, too. If Unibot was continuing to sexually harass women in this game, to this day, I would have a change of heart about cutting him out of my life. That would show me he isn’t ready yet or willing to take responsibility for his actions and atone for his misconduct. To my knowledge, this isn’t the case. I’m not personally aware of any complaints made, or evidence presented, beyond what got him banned in 2016. If there are, I would appreciate knowing about them. I would appreciate being allowed to know about them and to see the evidence. To this day, I am still barred from seeing the original evidence for his ban. I don’t understand why people, for years now, refuse to let me know anything on the one hand, and criticize me on the other hand for not having the same hatred they hold. I can only react to what I know.
Yuno brought up that he has been seeking to return to the game through appeal to various powerful friends. That information came from her and isn't false or misinformation.
Unibot has never admitted clearly to his guilt, only in a nebulous post that he made and then deleted. Since then he has only wanted to apologize if he can come back to the game or get something out of it. That's not genuine. His lack of admittance is why he can't be banned from the site and can continue to play the game and make posts about regional history in the same place where victims of his sexual harassment would like to be able to play the game without him being there. He didn't just make mistakes five years ago, he repeated the same kind of behavior one year ago in the words he chose and the type of rumors he spread. Unibot has a known history of claiming that any female that even talks to him or responds to his hello is being fucked by him in some disgusting manner. I don't care if you don't care about your reputation but I certainly care about mine and that of my female friends in this game. There's a reason Glenn hasn't been shown the evidence, it is because of the perceived close relationship and this "well it's been this much time, he was just a horny guy who didn't know how to deal with it, let it go now" mentality. There is no diminishing what happened and there should be no avenues back. I don't care if you speak to him on a personal level because that's on you; I do care that he thinks he still has connections to and possible return to the game when I'd like to see him completely gone. Victims of sexual harassment do not want to be known by everyone and don't get to roll it off their backs. They do not have to share spaces with players who have no respect for them, their boundaries, or their mental health. There's no "time limit" that resets their clocks and lets them "okay now I feel really good about what happened to me." THEY NEVER HAVE TO ACCEPT AN APOLOGY OR MOVE ON OR ANYTHING THEY DON"T FEEL LIKE DOING. EVER. IDGAF. So I don't care about bullshit forgiveness because his actions don't show anything about remorse but rather some attempt to excuse his behavior while still being a fucktard. Even if he genuinely did apologize, that doesn't give him access to the game space. NS doesn't need him, its better of without him. Players encouraging him to come back or validating him in any way should stop and make sure he knows he is unwelcome and should never come back and really should have removed himself from NS completely. Even if he's changed or whatever you want to claim, it doesn't make the community a better place to have him here on multiple counts. That's what would have showed that he gave two fucks - if he left the game completely so other people didn't feel the need to have to leave or hide or remember when a random douchebag they were polite to spread rumors about cybering with them far and wide because he could. That's the person I feel empathy for and protective towards, that female player, not the douchebag. Escade ~ Positions Held in TSP ~ Delegate | Vice Delegate Minister of Regional Affairs, | Minister of Foreign Affairs | Minister of Military Affairs ~ The Sparkly One ~ My Pinterest
I support the side of Tim and Escade here, but am mostly getting behind Ryccia's statement: Sexual harrasment is a horrible thing, and the fact that it's being politicized here is also horrible. I honestly don't care anout the political parts of this (well, maybe a little
 ), we just need to stop sexual harrasment in any shape or form. I know that if I had a spouse, daughter, or even myself (if I was female) and they experienced secual harrasment here, I would want them to get off the site. And we obviously don't want to lose players. So how we do that is by making sure that sexual predators have zero access to TSP, whether that be direct or through influence over government officials.
Midwesterner. Political nerd. Chipotle enthusiast.
Minister of Culture of the South Pacific // Former Prime Minister
I think what you are missing here Glen is that you’re not just an ordinary player; you are a Forum Admin, Discord Admin, CRS member and Justice in TSP - all posts responsible for community safety to some degree or another. Due to the positions of responsability you hold you don’t get judged by the same standard as everyone else.
That said, I accept your descripion of the current relationship between yourself and Unibot and don’t find it problematic. Minister of Media, Subversion and Sandwich Making
Associate Justice of the High Court and Senior Moderator
Honestly, I don't have the time nor interest to get into the nitty gritty here.
That said, like some have pointed out in various ways, I think it's important to remember that just because someone did something untoward, doesn't mean you immediately lose the feelings of concern or friendship with that person. Both Unibot and Sam were part of the game and region so people are bound to have some connections with them still. However, the key for admins and the like is knowing when to step back to allow more impartial people to make decisions. This is something Glen did regarding Unibot and something I did regarding Sam. I'm positive it was difficult for Glen to let a friend of many years be banned from the region and think he should be lauded for putting his official duties above personal feelings.
-tsunamy
[forum admin]
(08-02-2018, 12:22 AM)Escade Wrote: Yuno brought up that he has been seeking to return to the game through appeal to various powerful friends. That information came from her and isn't false or misinformation. I spoke to Yuno at the time you and Tim were saying Unibot was preparing an imminent appeal of his bans. She was wrong, and her information was based on his years-old appeal to CrazyGirl and Sedgistan in TRR. He has not, and will not, appeal his ban here, nor is he arguing anywhere that he is innocent and was banned under false allegations. He's asked people to stop defending him by questioning the evidence or saying it's false accusations. I understand how easy it is to believe that Unibot is trying to come back to TSP, trying to say it's all fake, not admitting to guilt, and the whole gamut. It's just not true. It may have been true in 2016, but it's not in 2018 and not any time in the future. I'm not going into the details of what changed, but he faced the truth and has accepted responsibility and the punishments he's been given. This is the last I'll say on this matter, in this environment. |
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