Belschaft, perhaps you feel differently because you were on the other side this time. Redirecting the forum URL, banjecting 3 member of the CSS, and dissolving the Coalition are all forceful things. It wasn't a constitutional crisis-- Hileville wasn't debating the constitution, he got rid of it, and some members of the Cabinet went along or even directly encouraged it.

Just because there weren't mass ejections doesn't make it any less of a coup. If Scylla had not cleared the ban list and had the ejected CSS members not come in, there would have been no end in sight. Hileville didn't end the situation-- he had no other choice, since he couldn't banject the entire CSS alone. He left because Scylla's defection meant the best he could hope for was a drawn out war of attrition until, hopefully, public opinion turned against him enough for our allies and other regions to create a piling force against him. He did not act benevolently. He simply didn't feel like sticking around, now that he wasn't assured legitimacy. Only two Cabinet members defected. The others faded into the background, not wanting to face the consequences for their actions.

Stop trying to diminish what happened. It was a coup, plain and simple. This nonsense is going to piss away all the good will some of us have left.


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Furthermore, amnesty (a) does not mean guaranteed membership in the CSS and (b) is only granted to those who have accepted guilt of their wrongdoing. That's what admitting culpability is. Sopo, Imki, and Sam have not done anything, and so they do not have amnesty. Until they each make a public post admitting what they did was wrong, they aren't going to enjoy freedom from prosecution, which is all amnesty guarantees.


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It was a constitutional crisis, that got messy when the Cabinet reacted poorly to Farengeto refusing to recall himself despite being a partisan in the matter in question. No one is denying that the Cabinet exceeded their legal authority in dissolving the Coalition, but prior to that they had been acting legally and had done nothing typical of a GCR coup. Even considering only the Cabinets actions in regards to the dissolving of the Coalition it wasn't typical of a GCR coup, lacking mass ejections, the deployment of foreign military forces, orchestrated propaganda campaigns or any attempt whatsoever to go against the will of the region; once native WA members made their displeasure for the dissolving of the Coalition clear, Hileville and the Cabinet brought things to an end, peacefully and without demanding concessions or terms.

You are approaching this with a sense of triumphalism and entitlement entirely inappropriate, and greatly to my dislike. This was not a situation where you won a GCR war, and get to impose terms and demand grovelling apologies at your feet. We called it quits because it was clear that the region was not willing to support the dissolution of the Coalition, and had lost faith in the Cabinet; when that was apparent Hile handed his nation over to me, and I organised for a transfer of power to Tsu in readiness of fresh elections. In doing so we prevented a civil war in TSP, and the general amnesty made it pretty damn clear that we were all coming back to these forums on an equal basis as part of a process of reconciliation and reform. That's not the case if you are going to go out of your way to call us coupers, threaten us with treason charges - charges that the amnesty prohibits - and seek to recall us from any positions we might hold.

If you want to start a political civil war in place of the military one that we avoided, that's your choice but don't expect people to sit around and agree to be used as a punching bag without fighting back.

To ask for Sam to return to the Coalition on an equal basis, one as a CSS member, is effectively inviting a couper of the Coalition into its most trusted ranks. It's like asking Milograd to return as Delegate, as a part of reconciliation.

Against the man, I hold little. Sam was, and could continue to be, a great South Pacifican, but asking the Coalition to have him as a CSS member is too much.


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(02-29-2016, 01:46 PM)Wolf Wrote:

(02-29-2016, 01:42 PM)Tsunamy Wrote: For the record, I'm not taking issue with your suggested implications. I'm taking issue with your argument that it was lawless to do so.

I never said it was lawless, nor am I implying such.

I am however directly saying that the CSS has distanced Sam from its body and to deny this fact is silly.

It's not lawless, it's 100% legal, but isn't it a bit misleading to pretend this to not be the case?

Apologies, Wolf. I misread your inital "without legal standing."

I must admit I'm a bit sensitive to charge of executive overreach and fear I was being overly defensive.

Look it was a coup alright. The Assembly is in many ways the governing body of TSP and the Cabinet illegal seized that power from the Assembly, in other words a coup.

Can we agree no matter our personal feelings towards Sam or how we define the word coup, that Sam was involved in the illegal actions of the Cabinet and therefore has defaulted on the trust the region bestowed upon him?

There's absolutely no comparison between Sam, or any other Cabinet member, and Milograd and to make that comparison is misleading and dishonest.

No one has said that the Cabinet did not exceed their legal powers, or has argued that doing so was the right course of action. What we have said, and continue to say, is that there were genuine reasons that led them to change forums - reasons that the region at large recognized as legitimate - and that they should not be judged upon an overly emotional overreaction to Faregeto refusing to recuse himself, and the compromised court ruling that produced. There was wrongdoing on both sides of this, and to focus merely on the cabinet is not only a dangerous mistake, but a complete repudiation of the agreement we all made to take part in an open and honest process of reform and reconciliation.

No one has been going after Glen and Kris for their roles in causing the crisis - I know people have been moaning about them somewhat on IRC and Discord, but no one is pushing the issue here on the forums or demanding they are removed as admins - or after Farengeto for triggering the damn thing by refusing to recuse himself, and issuing a hurried and partisan ruling.

If people want that truce to hold, they've got to respect it.

Personally I'm sick of judicial misconduct being ignored and even rewarded. It absolutely boggles me that someone who has absolutely no ability to balance conflicts of interest has managed to be elected in arguably the most sensitive cabinet position.

Boggles and horrifies. Have I sought a recall of them for their behaviour? No, simply because I cannot do so while Delegate of The North Pacific, although time will tell whether I maintain that stance.

And I'll say this Kris - in the future, when it comes to elections: deal with the result. Do not retreat from public view, do not decide to stop being a visible part of the community: it was that very decision you made which caused a good deal of the initial conflict that TSP's Delegate briefed TNP about and sought advice over. Elections won't always go the way we want them do, and sometimes we need to hold our head up high and deal with it. Hiding is not an option, especially when they are you - especially when TSP has a posting requirement. I couldn't do this in TNP, and I couldn't do it in Osiris when I was an integral part of their community either. There would have been consequences.

Com'on guys -- this is getting really far off topic and veering into personal territory.