(03-07-2016, 05:24 PM)sandaoguo Wrote: We're pretty much beyond hope if our leaders don't call out this BS. Some of you would prefer to do anything at all to avoid a fight, because you think the metric for success is not having to do anything difficult or controversial. This is a prime example of the total failure of our region's "reasonable" class..

You're right Glen. Our leaders should man up. They need to start by maybe declaring a sort of "status" on the region...maybe like a state of emergency, or a forum move, or something. Then, we start ignoring the laws we don't like and hope the Courts rule in our favor. If that doesn't work, we declare the Courts to be invalid, ban the Justice that made the ruling and then ban everyone we don't like. Maybe declare the Charter dissolved too, just to be sure.

That's the only way to solve this issue and it's 100% Glen approved. Why, I'm sure he'd be a big supporter of this sort of action had it been carried out in the past.

(03-07-2016, 05:24 PM)sandaoguo Wrote: Let's not kid ourselves on who most of those 10 voters are. We all know how to characterize the bulk of them.

Traitors, amirte? Let's ban the lot of them and live in blissful harmony.

Remember kids, a vote against Sam's recall is a vote for a ban later, you treasonous scum.

(03-07-2016, 04:18 PM)Belschaft Wrote:

(03-07-2016, 04:15 PM)The Serres Republic Wrote:

(03-07-2016, 04:09 PM)Belschaft Wrote: The fact that Glen and Kris don't want to work with Sam is not a good reason to remove Sam from the CSS. The fact that we need to try and see things from their point of view doesn't mean that we also need to accept their opinions as being correct, and in this case the Assembly didn't. That people are demanding a new recall vote is ridiculous and nothing short than the actions of a child, who can't accept that they didn't get their own way.

The fact of the matter remains that we have a dis functional CSS, I would love to hear a suggestion that solves this other then the removal of one the parties, or the rebuilding of the Entire CSS, if we lived in a perfect world then maybe the two sides would be able to act like adults and work together despite the personal grievances that exist, but that is clearly not the case. Therefor something needs to be done, and while I don't like it, the removal of Sam is the safest way, for our region, to proceed.

Having been a CSS member, and knowing what it involves, there is absolutely no reason why anyone needs to go. The CSS does not handle anything that is of a nature where Glen and Kris shouldn't be able to work with Sam; they don't want to, but that isn't a good enough reason. TSP cannot be organised based upon what they want.

Well I will have to take your word for it since I have never been a CSS member. I resign my arguement then, thank you for your clarification Belschaft.

(03-07-2016, 05:24 PM)sandaoguo Wrote: Let's not kid ourselves on who most of those 10 voters are. We all know how to characterize the bulk of them.

[Image: dNVvntX.gif?noredirect]

Sand a vote of 14 to 10 is extremely close like 60-40 close. With the way you are and have been acting, I am beginning to see more of a threat from you then Sam in this issue. Sam has at least made a statement that is calm, productive, and clear. What have you contributed? Kris I can support because he is working hiss hiney off to keep the region active, and when he does post it is always productive and helpful, very rarely does he let personal emotions get in the way and when he does it is completely justified due to him being attacked.

I have seen none of this from you. You are acting hot headed, immature, and constantly derailing things off topic. How about you step back and realize that no one here is your enemy. We are your fellow tspers dammit and we demand your respect. Stop wasting our time with off topic attacks on person and start being productive.

You know what, no, because I k is you won't take anything productive with this. Just know that if you continue to behave this way you will see consequences. I, no TSP needs maturity and a level head from you, and if you can't offer that then we don't need you in here toxifying the forum. You are so adamant that you were betrayed and that Sam coup'd the region with Hileville, but not once have you looked at your own problems. If you behaved the same way you do now before the forum coup then hell, you deserved it by my standards.

Kris, Tsu, and Faren are different stories they know how to act on a professional political debate forum, you, God man just start acting mature. I cannot believe you have just grouped a huge minority (over 40% of the voters) singularily. That is so toxic. Like frock dude!

I have to double post because I need to recognize the beauty in the level of sass wolf brings to TSP, I honestly think I'm in love.

I have no real interest is being calm or clear, or respectable here. Every step of the way, we've been making mistake after mistake dealing with the aftermath of the coup.

It would be simpler if we all just rolled over for the coupers, said they were right, and did everything they asked. It would be simpler if I would stop being "intransigent" and just went along with everything, my own opinion be damned because I caused the coup after all.

It is no mystery whatsoever why every fight so far as been along the same line, with those who agreed with the coup on one side and those who fought against it on the other. To pretend like this isn't politics is just dumb, and I don't feel like biting my tongue over it anymore.

Belschaft wants Sam to stay on the CSS because it's one way he can win. It's not that he doesn't trust me and needs a counterbalance-- if I were going to ban him, it would have been months ago. It's because we're political enemies, and he knows I don't want Sam on the CSS. So Sam being on the CSS becomes a political point to score. That's how this game has always been played, and a lot of you are pretending that's just not so.

Sit back and continue believing that these people are acting in good faith, and just want to make things better, rather than acting in their own interests and trying to get what they want and what makes them more powerful and influential. This coup happened exactly because there are too many people in this region who think by pretending cynical politics doesn't exist makes it true, and so they'll never have to deal with it. Tribalism is the defining feature of NS Gameplay, and the players who have been making all the moves are born of that part of the game.

I've been willing to listen and to make policy changes, because as long as we want to let a diverse group of players in TSP, I need to be flexible in what is possible and what is needed politically to keep the peace. But there are some things that cannot be negotiated away through objective policy changes. Some things are just straight up politics, with no middle ground that will keep the peace instead of just putting a lid on a pressure cooker. It's that latter thing that we have such a difficult time admitting and dealing with, and it's a very big part of why there was a coup and why we're still fighting in the aftermath.

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I have no real interest is being calm or clear, or respectable here. Every step of the way, we've been making mistake after mistake dealing with the aftermath of the coup.
It would be simpler if we all just rolled over for the coupers, said they were right, and did everything they asked. It would be simpler if I would stop being "intransigent" and just went along with everything, my own opinion be damned because I caused the coup after all.

1: you have just blatantly admitted that you have no interest in the success of Tsp, and only your own greed as a politician, neat.

2: defending your opinions and mindlessly name calling are two completely different things you selfish twat in fact I just mindlessly name called and defended my opinion to show you the difference between the two.

It is no mystery whatsoever why every fight so far as been along the same line, with those who agreed with the coup on one side and those who fought against it on the other. To pretend like this isn't politics is just dumb, and I don't feel like biting my tongue over it anymore.

I am not pretending that politics is non existent in this discussion, I am addressing that it is, and emploring our region to realize that it's continued inclusion will only cause a repeat of the coup we just suffered through.

Belschaft wants Sam to stay on the CSS because it's one way he can win. It's not that he doesn't trust me and needs a counterbalance-- if I were going to ban him, it would have been months ago. It's because we're political enemies, and he knows I don't want Sam on the CSS. So Sam being on the CSS becomes a political point to score. That's how this game has always been played, and a lot of you are pretending that's just not so.

Belschaft has not said that he fears you will ban Sam, Frost raised that concern. Not only that but Belschafts real arguement is that your only reason for wanting to remove Sam is that you don't want to work with him, that these selfish reasons do not merit a recall. An arguement that is completely justified and valid.

Sit back and continue believing that these people are acting in good faith, and just want to make things better, rather than acting in their own interests and trying to get what they want and what makes them more powerful and influential. This coup happened exactly because there are too many people in this region who think by pretending cynical politics doesn't exist makes it true, and so they'll never have to deal with it. Tribalism is the defining feature of NS Gameplay, and the players who have been making all the moves are born of that part of the game.

Incorrect, the vast majority of tspers in on this discussion want only success for tsp, and fight for the future they believe in. It is this tribalistic culture that you point out that started this coup in the first place, and you are currently the only individual advocating it in tsp. I do not pretend tribalism is non existent, I find it where it exists and I burn it to the ground and right now sand, you are the main driving force and advocate for this mindset. So, with the little respect you still deserve I ask again, refrain from derailing intelligent discussions with your mindless name calling and political agenda.

Double;

Your final paragraph was extremely insightful, however I believe we can have those discussions and issues without toxicity or derailment of intelligent discussion.

Let us say a high ranking MI5 offical is involved in overthrowing the UK government. Would you want that MI5 official in that same position of power? Of course not! So why do you still want Sam on the CSS? Sam willingly got involved in the coup and ejected a member of the community. I just cannot understand why you think a former couper would be a useful member on a group of people who's job it is to prevent and fight coups. Would you let a former murderer be on a group designed to help prevent murders? No!