And this is how we go Backwards... Again... just a thought but why don't we just get sidetracked by a different part of this topic for a bit before this becomes another drudge fest

It will always continue to return as a debate for as long as Belschaft believes he can push his ideology upon The South Pacific on the basis of rejecting others's ideologies. Ultimately, not all of us are set on his independentism.

I've seen people pushing defender or raider ideology destroy enough regions to sit quietly and let Unibot do it here. Both Osiris and Lazarus were purged as a result of people implementing policies like he's pushing for. Nothing but division, strife and civil war can come of it.

TSP can only remain an open, diverse , liberal democratic region by being firmly centrist. Our institutions need to be designed so that disputes are manageable, that divergent points of view respected, and differences tolerated. Sometimes you will be in the majority, and be able to push your own ideas. Sometimes you will be in the minority, and able to do no more than resist what you see as being most objectionable. I've been in both in my time here - in general and on specific issues. But what you don't do is try and purge the minority when you're in power, or demand parallel institutions when your in the minority.

What I'm absolutely not going to do is let Unibot make up a pretend version of Independence to suit his own political ambitions. He's tried that elsewhere, and I'm stamping on it right now here. Independence is not "raider-light" as he likes to pretend. It has nothing to do with R/D at all. R/D is divisive, factional, pointless nonsense. I call it digital cops and robbers, because that's all it is. One group seizes a random founderless UCR, and the other tries to take it of them. Repeat ad infinitum. It's not interesting and it's not relevant to TSP. What is relevant is our security, the security of our allies and the defeat of our enemies. The entire point of Independence is to move beyond the children's game that is R/D and focus on things that matter to this region. Things that are relevant to it.

Regional interests can change over time, as do the people who judge them. Geomania is historically a defender. SB is historically a raider. They both have had different different focuses as a result, and our military structure was designed to accommodate for that. That is the entire point of Independence. Independence is not an ideology, and I will not let Unibot pretend it is. Raiders will raid any region. Defenders will defend every region. An independent might raid some and defend others. It's non-ideological, non-partisan, inclusive and regional interest based. It is pragmatic self interest.

There are plenty of defender regions and groups out there. Unibot is a member of several of them. I'm sick of him trying to turn this region into one of them, when it isn't and never has been one. Nothing good can come it. All one has to do is look at Osiris and Lazarus - once diverse, open regions tolerant to people with different ideas. One's a defender dictatorship that has purged everyone who isn't one, and the other is a raider dictatorship who has purged everyone who isn't one. That's what happens when people try to force R/D on GCR's.

If Unibot's ideas aren't popular with the region, then Unibot's ideas won't be pursued and enacted. There's no need to make a stink about it whenever he talks about them. Definitely no need to try to push him out of the region for it. You say, "Our institutions need to be designed so that disputes are manageable, that divergent points of view respected, and differences tolerated." Heed that advice whenever somebody advocates a position you disagree with strongly.

(06-11-2014, 10:57 PM)Sandaoguo Wrote: If Unibot's ideas aren't popular with the region, then Unibot's ideas won't be pursued and enacted. There's no need to make a stink about it whenever he talks about them. Definitely no need to try to push him out of the region for it. You say, "Our institutions need to be designed so that disputes are manageable, that divergent points of view respected, and differences tolerated." Heed that advice whenever somebody advocates a position you disagree with strongly.

Which is why I debate the topic instead of having used my position as Delegate to purge him when I could have, as occurred in both Osiris and Lazarus.

Ya should know Uni doesn't debate. He preaches.

(06-11-2014, 10:39 PM)Belschaft Wrote: Independence is not an ideology, and I will not let Unibot pretend it is.

There we have it!

Lovely to know that your beliefs are unfettered with "ideology", but my beliefs are dirty "ideology".

Ideology is a system of ideas that informs us of what is the right thing to do in a given situation.

Independentism is an ideology - and the rebranding of it as above all other ideas is a ludicrous exercise in self-exemption and tactical reframing.

No, it is a statement of fact. The point of independence is that military decisions should be determined according to regional interest, rather than according to arbitrary definitions. It is pragmatism. Ideology is when decisions are made according to preconceived systems of thought - for example, the idea that all regions should be defended because regions should always be defended because... something?

Independence dictates that military decisons should be made on a case by case basis, according to the specific circumstances of each region. Liberal Haven might be defended whilst Nazi Europe might be raided. That is not ideology.

The concept that decisions should be made on the merits of the individual case is the very opposite of ideology.

I give up

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

(06-12-2014, 08:48 AM)southern bellz Wrote: I give up

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

I admit that the concept seems tempting.