I would like to offer the following draft of a strong statement that pulls no punches and stakes out a principled position for TSP moving forward. I think we have countenanced bad faith too much over the years, and we have avoided taking strong positions on it due to a combination of ostrich syndrome and not wanting to offend legacy allies who aid and abet in the bad faith.

This is written as a combination statement, addressing both TBH's manipulation of OWL votes and the gross bad faith of "Commend Twobagger." It could easily be two statements, though the issues are intertwined.

I also think, frankly, we should discuss proscribing TBH once and for all due to the OWL manipulation.

--------------------

Statement on The Black Hawks’ Violation of Sovereignty

This week, our allies in 10000 Islands alerted the Cabinet and the Council on Regional Security to suspect activity in the Office of WA Legislation (OWL) surveys on Security Council resolutions. In an effort to increase to participation and representation in the World Assembly, OWL holds regular RMB-based debates on World Assembly resolutions. The outcome of these debates strongly influences our Delegate’s vote on the resolutions.

We have strong evidence that members of The Black Hawks attempted to manipulate the outcome of Security Council votes related to their interests.

• The nation “Rebbid” belongs to known player Martyn, who is a corporal in The Black Hawks, and was founded merely 2 days before immediately joining the World Assembly and casting a vote, without explanation, in favor of “Commend Twobagger.”
  
• The nation “GlowGolden” was founded at the same time and also immediately joined the World Assembly and cast a vote, without explanation, in favor of “Commend Twobagger.” We believe this nation may belong to Steak Paul, a known member of The Black Hawks, due to Steak Paul resigning from the World Assembly a mere 30 seconds before GlowGolden was admitted.
  
• Both Rebbid and GlowGolden nations had moved into newly-founded passworded regions before moving into The South Pacific. We believe this may have been part of an alternate plan to pad “Commend Twobagger” with approvals by creating small single-purposes Delegates, in case it could not reach the voting queue organically.
  
• A similar pattern was spotted with the nation “Seltin.” This nation is older, founded in September 2020 but only days ago rejoined the World Assembly. Their only activity in The South Pacific has been to vote in OWL and their votes track with the interests of The Black Hawks. They voted in favor of “Condemn Ever-Wandering Souls”, which was widely considered to be a thinly-veiled congratulation for the well-known raider. They also voted in favor of “Commend Twobagger.”
  

The Cabinet of The South Pacific considers this a grave and gross violation of our regional sovereignty by The Black Hawks. We endeavor to create an open community and foster a representative government, and the OWL program has been a great vehicle to introduce the community to the World Assembly. To abuse and attempt to manipulate the outcome of these votes to serve a foreign enemy’s interest is an attack on the integrity of our democracy. We will not sit idly and allow it to go unanswered.

The Cabinet retains the authority to override an OWL vote, exactly to prevent something like this from succeeding. We shall do so when necessary. Let it be known to all enemies of the Coalition, and those who would think we can be so easily manipulated, that The South Pacific and our allies are watching.

The Cabinet also takes this opportunity to address the Security Council resolution that has inspired The Black Hawks to again attempt to violate our sovereignty. “Commend Twobagger” is a product of the worst habits of the Security Council and the Gameplay community in general. Let’s be clear: Twobagger betrayed 10000 Islands and joined their enemies in The Black Hawks. Regardless of the motive or anybody’s opinion on that, they are not an active defender and 10000 Islands does not approve of being used in such a manipulative way to commend them. The commendation purposefully misleads the rest of the game into thinking that Twobagger is a current wonderous defender, when in all actuality they are a turncoat raider.

“Commend Twobagger” represents the epitome of bad faith, pettiness, dishonesty, and unfair play that we have sadly come to expect from The Black Hawks. This kind of abuse of the Security Council debases the institution. When a resolution can be pushed through using such dishonest and despicable bad faith, it devalues the whole purpose of Commendations and the Security Council itself. Too many regions underestimate the damage these stunts do. The Black Hawks, and those who aid and abet their remorseless bad faith, are sowing a momentary and fleeting feeling of joy in sticking it to defenders. But we will all reap the disillusionment and discontent that comes when we throw the principles of honestly, good faith, and fair play out of the window.

The South Pacific has voted against this commendation, and we encourage all regions, and all of our allies and partners to join us in doing so. It’s time to stand up for what’s right and foster a game that no longer promotes and rewards manipulation, bad faith, and trolling.

I like the statement, though there are a few changes I would recommend.

(11-19-2020, 02:20 PM)sandaoguo Wrote: Statement on The Black Hawks’ Violation of Sovereignty

The GP forum thread title needs to be spicier. "The Black Hawks caught manipulating TSP votes" or something. It needs to really pop out and immediately grab attention.

(11-19-2020, 02:20 PM)sandaoguo Wrote: This week, our allies in 10000 Islands alerted the Cabinet and the Council on Regional Security to suspect activity in the Office of WA Legislation (OWL) surveys on Security Council resolutions.

This implies too much that it was only caught because of XKI, which kinda undermines our implicit assertion that our democracy is stronger than their attempts to meddle within it. Somy already had suspected it anyway.

(11-19-2020, 02:20 PM)sandaoguo Wrote: The Cabinet of The South Pacific considers this a grave and gross violation of our regional sovereignty by The Black Hawks. We endeavor to create an open community and foster a representative government, and the OWL program has been a great vehicle to introduce the community to the World Assembly. To abuse and attempt to manipulate the outcome of these votes to serve a foreign enemy’s interest is an attack on the integrity of our democracy. We will not sit idly and allow it to go unanswered.

The Cabinet retains the authority to override an OWL vote, exactly to prevent something like this from succeeding. We shall do so when necessary. Let it be known to all enemies of the Coalition, and those who would think we can be so easily manipulated, that The South Pacific and our allies are watching.

The phrasing here is weird, because both paragraphs have commanding statements ("we will not sit idly by.." vs "let it be known").

(11-19-2020, 02:20 PM)sandaoguo Wrote: “Commend Twobagger” represents the epitome of bad faith, pettiness, dishonesty, and unfair play that we have sadly come to expect from The Black Hawks.

"unfair play" implies OOCness. I'd remove that one entirely.

(11-19-2020, 02:20 PM)sandaoguo Wrote: The South Pacific has voted against this commendation, and we encourage all regions, and all of our allies and partners to join us in doing so. It’s time to stand up for what’s right and foster a game that no longer promotes and rewards manipulation, bad faith, and trolling.

Same deal here wrt "trolling" - in fact, that one can garner a warning on-site because trollnaming is not allowed.

Here's my proposed edit of the statement:

Quote:Statement on The Black Hawks’ Violation of Sovereignty

This week, our Office of WA Legislation (OWL) noticed suspicious activity in its surveys on Security Council resolutions. In an effort to increase to participation and representation in the World Assembly, OWL holds regular RMB-based debates on World Assembly resolutions. The outcome of these debates strongly influences our Delegate’s vote on the resolutions.

Our allies in 10000 Islands also alerted the Cabinet and the Council on Regional Security on this suspicious activity and provided more information. We have strong evidence that members of The Black Hawks attempted to manipulate the outcome of Security Council votes related to their interests.

• The nation “Rebbid” belongs to known player Martyn, who is a corporal in The Black Hawks, and was founded merely 2 days before immediately joining the World Assembly and casting a vote, without explanation, in favor of “Commend Twobagger.”
  
• The nation “GlowGolden” was founded at the same time and also immediately joined the World Assembly and cast a vote, without explanation, in favor of “Commend Twobagger.” We believe this nation may belong to Steak Paul, a known member of The Black Hawks, due to Steak Paul resigning from the World Assembly a mere 30 seconds before GlowGolden was admitted.
  
• Both Rebbid and GlowGolden nations had moved into newly-founded passworded regions before moving into The South Pacific. We believe this may have been part of an alternate plan to pad “Commend Twobagger” with approvals by creating small single-purposes Delegates, in case it could not reach the voting queue organically.
  
• A similar pattern was spotted with the nation “Seltin.” This nation is older, founded in September 2020 but only days ago rejoined the World Assembly. Their only activity in The South Pacific has been to vote in OWL and their votes track with the interests of The Black Hawks. They voted in favor of “Condemn Ever-Wandering Souls”, which was widely considered to be a thinly-veiled congratulation for the well-known raider. They also voted in favor of “Commend Twobagger.”
  

The Cabinet of The South Pacific considers this a grave and gross violation of our regional sovereignty by The Black Hawks. We endeavor to create an open community and foster a representative government, and the OWL program has been a great vehicle to introduce the community to the World Assembly. To abuse and attempt to manipulate the outcome of these votes to serve a foreign enemy’s interest is an attack on the integrity of our democracy. The Cabinet retains the authority to override an OWL vote, exactly to prevent something like this from succeeding. We shall do so when necessary. Let it be known to all enemies of the Coalition, and those who would think we can be so easily manipulated, that The South Pacific and our allies are watching.

The Cabinet also takes this opportunity to address the Security Council resolution that has inspired The Black Hawks to again attempt to violate our sovereignty. “Commend Twobagger” is a product of the worst habits of the Security Council and the Gameplay community in general. Let’s be clear: Twobagger betrayed 10000 Islands and joined their enemies in The Black Hawks. Regardless of the motive or anybody’s opinion on that, they are not an active defender and 10000 Islands does not approve of being used in such a manipulative way to commend them. The commendation purposefully misleads the rest of the game into thinking that Twobagger is a current wonderous defender, when in all actuality they are a turncoat raider.

“Commend Twobagger” represents the epitome of bad faith, pettiness, and dishonesty that we have sadly come to expect from The Black Hawks. This kind of abuse of the Security Council debases the institution. When a resolution can be pushed through using such dishonest and despicable bad faith, it devalues the whole purpose of Commendations and the Security Council itself. Too many regions underestimate the damage these stunts do. The Black Hawks, and those who aid and abet their remorseless bad faith, are sowing a momentary and fleeting feeling of joy in sticking it to defenders. But we will all reap the disillusionment and discontent that comes when we throw the principles of honestly, good faith, and honorable conduct out of the window.

The South Pacific has voted against this commendation, and we encourage all regions, and all of our allies and partners to join us in doing so. It’s time to stand up for what’s right and foster a game that no longer promotes and rewards manipulation, bad faith, and trolling.

I’m opposed to removing unfair play and troll. It’s exactly what’s going on, and calling it “OOC” makes no sense. We are mad because of what Jakker/TBH is doing, and what they’re doing is a) trolling and b) playing unfairly. I don’t care about some dumb “troll naming” rule— trolling is a word with its own meaning, and it applies to what is happening here, regardless of any dumb interpretation of a rule that clearly does not apply in this context.

(11-20-2020, 12:21 PM)sandaoguo Wrote: I’m opposed to removing unfair play and troll. It’s exactly what’s going on, and calling it “OOC” makes no sense. We are mad because of what Jakker/TBH is doing, and what they’re doing is a) trolling and b) playing unfairly. I don’t care about some dumb “troll naming” rule— trolling is a word with its own meaning, and it applies to what is happening here, regardless of any dumb interpretation of a rule that clearly does not apply in this context.

First, trollnaming is against NS site rules, and this statement would be useless if not posted on GP. (EDIT: whoops, nope, Glen was right.)
Second, what I'm trying to say is we should avoid using words that would make people interpret it as being an OOC attack, because particularly TBH is very quick to pick up on anything and decide to be personally (as in, the person playing the game) offended about it because of word choice.

Glen and I talked a bit in #cabinet-office, new draft:

Quote:Statement on The Black Hawks’ Violation of Sovereignty

This week, our Office of WA Legislation (OWL) noticed suspicious activity in its surveys on Security Council resolutions. In an effort to increase to participation and representation in the World Assembly, OWL holds regular RMB-based debates on World Assembly resolutions. The outcome of these debates strongly influences our Delegate’s vote on the resolutions.

Our allies in 10000 Islands also alerted the Cabinet and the Council on Regional Security on this suspicious activity and provided more information. We have strong evidence that members of The Black Hawks attempted to manipulate the outcome of Security Council votes related to their interests.

• The nation “Rebbid” belongs to known player Martyn, who is a corporal in The Black Hawks, and was founded merely 2 days before immediately joining the World Assembly and casting a vote, without explanation, in favor of “Commend Twobagger.”
  
• The nation “GlowGolden” was founded at the same time and also immediately joined the World Assembly and cast a vote, without explanation, in favor of “Commend Twobagger.” We believe this nation may belong to Steak Paul, a known member of The Black Hawks, due to Steak Paul resigning from the World Assembly a mere 30 seconds before GlowGolden was admitted.
  
• Both Rebbid and GlowGolden nations had moved into newly-founded passworded regions before moving into The South Pacific. We believe this may have been part of an alternate plan to pad “Commend Twobagger” with approvals by creating small single-purposes Delegates, in case it could not reach the voting queue organically.
  
• A similar pattern was spotted with the nation “Seltin.” This nation is older, founded in September 2020 but only days ago rejoined the World Assembly. Their only activity in The South Pacific has been to vote in OWL and their votes track with the interests of The Black Hawks. They voted in favor of “Condemn Ever-Wandering Souls”, which was widely considered to be a thinly-veiled congratulation for the well-known raider. They also voted in favor of “Commend Twobagger.”
  

The Cabinet of The South Pacific considers this a grave and gross violation of our regional sovereignty by The Black Hawks. We endeavor to create an open community and foster a representative government, and the OWL program has been a great vehicle to introduce the community to the World Assembly. To abuse and attempt to manipulate the outcome of these votes to serve a foreign enemy’s interest is an attack on the integrity of our democracy. The Cabinet retains the authority to override an OWL vote, exactly to prevent something like this from succeeding. We shall do so when necessary. Let it be known to all enemies of the Coalition, and those who would think we can be so easily manipulated, that The South Pacific and our allies are watching.

The Cabinet also takes this opportunity to address the Security Council resolution that has inspired The Black Hawks to again attempt to violate our sovereignty. “Commend Twobagger” is a product of the worst habits of the Security Council and the Gameplay community in general. Let’s be clear: Twobagger betrayed 10000 Islands and joined their enemies in The Black Hawks. Regardless of the motive or anybody’s opinion on that, they are not an active defender and 10000 Islands does not approve of being used in such a manipulative way to commend them. The commendation purposefully misleads the rest of the game into thinking that Twobagger is a current wonderous defender, when in all actuality they are a turncoat raider.

“Commend Twobagger” represents the epitome of bad faith, pettiness, dishonesty, and disrespect that we have sadly come to expect from The Black Hawks. This kind of abuse of the Security Council debases the institution. When a resolution can be pushed through using such dishonest and despicable bad faith, it devalues the whole purpose of Commendations and the Security Council itself. Too many regions underestimate the damage these stunts do. The Black Hawks, and those who aid and abet their remorseless bad faith, are sowing a momentary and fleeting feeling of joy in sticking it to defenders. But we will all reap the disillusionment and discontent that comes when we throw the principles of honestly, good faith, and honorable conduct out of the window.

The South Pacific has voted against this commendation, and we encourage all regions, and all of our allies and partners to join us in doing so. It’s time to stand up for what’s right and foster a game that no longer promotes and rewards manipulation, bad faith, and trolling.

[/quote]

Following discussion in Discord, I said I would write up a draft and we could continue debate on the subject of full vs regional proscription after that. So here's the draft, accompanied by my thoughts on proscription put into better and more coherent detail.

----------

Proscription of The Black Hawks

Following the statement released by the Cabinet on November 11, 2020, regarding an attempt by members of The Black Hawks to subvert and manipulate the Office of WA Legislation (OWL) voting program, the Cabinet met and discussed further actions. We have decided that this violation of sovereignty qualifies as an act of hostility under Article 1, Section 1(d) of the Proscription Act: “Exploiting, manipulating, or unduly influencing elections or votes.”

The Cabinet hereby issues a full proscription of The Black Hawks, under the powers granted to us by Article 3 of the Proscription Act. This proscription prohibits any member of The Black Hawks from having a nation in any regions under the jurisdiction of the Coalition of the South Pacific or any of our off-site properties. We take this action not only to help ensure our security and integrity the OWL program, but also to deter future attempts to subvert the South Pacific with a clear message: you will be caught and you will face the maximum punishment under our laws.

The Black Hawks have a long history of targeting the South Pacific, with attempts at infiltration and conspiracies to subvert the government and destroy the region. This latest act against our region shows that the region and its leadership and members has not changed over the years. While publicly their leadership claims to have not authorized an act of aggression against the South Pacific, it is not a credible denial. Furthermore, even if we accept the premise that the Council of Hawks did not authorize its members manipulate our World Assembly program, the conclusion we must draw is that we cannot trust any member of The Black Hawks to not attack our sovereignty in the future. Targeted individual proscriptions would prove fruitless.

The more time has passed by, the clearer it has become that The Black Hawks, as a whole organization and region, is an enemy of the South Pacific. We shall harbor no enemies in our jurisdictions.

==========

Why we should issue a full proscription

The above draft statement offers my general justification for a full proscription, but I want to address the points raised on Discord about a regional vs. a full proscription. I think the only strong decision here is to issue a full proscription. A regional proscription would be a half-measure, and TBH has not showed they deserve to be spared the maximum punishment here.

Roavin has argued that a regional proscription isn’t a half-measure, because “a proscription is a proscription.” I disagree and I think he’s wrong on this front for two reasons. First, the law delineates two different forms of proscription (and calls one “full”) for a reason. Just definitionally, the option that isn’t a “full” proscription is a “less than full” one. Regional proscriptions are very obviously a lesser form punishment, i.e. a half-measure. Secondly, that’s exactly how proscriptions have been treated by previous Cabinets. When you look at the list of extant proscriptions and read the justifications for them, the pattern is quite clear. McMannia/HYDRA was fully proscribed for infiltrating, but The Ragerian Imperium was only regionally proscribed because McMannia was no longer in leadership there. Core leadership of Rahl is fully proscribed, but the underlings and associates who work with them are only regionally proscribed because they’re not the same level. It’s very clear that there’s a distinction of regional proscriptions as lesser than full proscriptions, and full proscriptions are reserved for the worst of enemies.

That’s why it’s personally frustrating for me that, despite the previous 2+ years of TBH being hostile and pulling these stunts, the instinct of the Cabinet is to choose the lesser form of proscription. TBH is either an enemy or they’re a minor nuisance. If they’re an enemy, then we need to take the kid gloves off and go full force in how we handle them. A full proscription is, quite literally, full force.

The logic of having two levels of proscriptions is based on, in my opinion, a rather flimsy idea that we can win over the hearts and minds of members of enemy regions/organizations. If we allow them in our Discord and forum, they can see how great of a region we are and be convinced to turn their backs of our enemies and cross over to us. I don’t believe this is a realistic view of the game when it comes to TSP. And I think that’s gambling with our long-term security in any case. Roavin’s experience in The Grey Wardens, where this “win them over” approach was born, does not translate perfectly to TSP as a GCR. There’s also no compelling reason why we would even want to try to win over TBHers, which is itself a massively risky endeavor.

First, we aren’t a defender organization with a region, but a community grown from a GCR. We don’t have a founder that guarantees our regional security. If we did, we could be a lot less lax with handling enemies. We weren’t founded as a defender organization. Rather, we’re a democratic region that only recently became defender in the grand scheme of history, and the foundations of our alignment are not fully set like TRR’s.

Second, our history has no shortage of examples of what happens when you allow a disconnect between declaring somebody a security threat but allowing them to stick around. There’s a fundamental cognitive dissonance in saying, “TBH is a grave threat to our community, but they are totally welcome to participate in our community.” That dissonance results invariably in people wondering over time why we even consider somebody an enemy, even if the underlying reasons why they were proscribed haven’t changed. It took years to proscribe the Rahl Family exactly because this dynamic is so corrosive to regional security. “Dali is a such nice and cool guy, why are you being so harsh and saying he’s a security threat?” was the mantra for years whenever I pointed out that Empire/Rahl are untrustworthy and targeting TSP. I would go so far to say that the primary reason why our existing regional proscriptions work is because those proscribed decided it wasn't worth it to stick around, not because regional proscriptions are themselves inherently stable.

That’s why I’m skeptical that we should even employ regional proscriptions moving forward, though that is a larger conversation. I think the idea was useful 2-3 years ago, when it was a compromise for Belshaft’s intransigence about proscriptions. In other words, it was better than nothing. But we absolutely should not be considering lesser regional proscriptions the default. That is just bad security policy. If we consider a person/region/organization an enemy, then there is no reason to say they should be allowed into any part of TSP. We are not obligated to be a public space for all of NationStates.

Thought I'd commented on this the other day, but apparently not. I've come around on a full proscription, and would personally push for it. But I'm not going to block a regional proscription if it comes to it.

*crickets*

We’re coming on a week here. What’s the plan?

Post it Full Proscription

Full proscription.