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+----- Thread: CSS Recall of Sam111 (/thread-3809.html)
RE: CSS Recall of Sam111 - Wolf - 03-02-2016
(03-02-2016, 01:09 PM)Cathalea Wrote: We're not blacklisting, we're removing a security risk from our security organization. Nothing more for this vote.
If he's such a risk, why are you not demanding that the Cabinet declare him a Security Threat? Or is it that you believe he's only kinda a security risk?
CSS Recall of Sam111 - ProfessorHenn - 03-02-2016
My immediate concern is him off the CSS. If he has no remorse for his actions against the Coalition, then I will push for a conversation of his security threat declaration.
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RE: CSS Recall of Sam111 - Wolf - 03-02-2016
(03-02-2016, 01:19 PM)Cathalea Wrote: My immediate concern is him off the CSS. If he has no remorse for his actions against the Coalition, then I will push for a conversation of his security threat declaration.
And if this recall vote fails, will you then pursue a Security Threat declaration regardless of his membership on the CSS?
CSS Recall of Sam111 - ProfessorHenn - 03-02-2016
I will pursue a Security Threat Declaration if he has no remorse for attempting to bring down that which we cherish. His removal from the CSS is my primary concern and I will not let loose on this, remorse or not.
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RE: CSS Recall of Sam111 - Eluvatar - 03-02-2016
This is a very strange debate.
In deciding how to vote, I asked myself this question:
Given what I know, can I be sure beyond a reasonable doubt that Sam11 will support the Coalition against attempts to overthrow it?
The answer was no.
In my understanding of security roles like the CSS, nations entrusted with holding great regional influence so as to serve as the locus of resistance in the case of a coup, we need exceedingly high confidence that they will support our democratic polity. Above, I have deliberately inverted the words for the burden of proof in trials: I think it is that important that we know we will not be betrayed.
I say this with no condemnation for the goals and desires of the former Cabinet. I have enormous sympathy for them. I can remember similar goals and desires of my own from 2007. In time, I would hope that we will reach a state where I can trust the former cabinet to support and even enforce this peace beyond a reasonable doubt.
My reasoning regarding a declaration that someone is such a security threat that we cannot tolerate them holding citizenship would be rather different.
RE: CSS Recall of Sam111 - sandaoguo - 03-02-2016
From what I'm reading, people are getting wrongly caught up in the wrong argument. We do not view Sam as an imminent threat to regional security. That is not why anybody should vote to recall him from the CSS.
The thing we should be considering is this:
(03-01-2016, 09:11 PM)Belschaft Wrote: I think it needs to be recognized that people may act in a certain manner during a high stress constitutional crisis, a manner that is not typical of how they would act normally.
If the "certain manner" Sam acted was to end up participating in a coup, after the High Court ruled against the Cabinet, after it was clear the Cabinet's actions were illegal, does that temperament and misjudgment disqualify him from sitting on the CSS?
I think the answer is yes. It's true that very few in NSGP have spotless records-- but even fewer have participated in a coup. Regardless of your sympathies for either the Coalition or for the Transitional Government, it is indisputable that the former followed the laws to fight against the coup, while the latter got rid of the laws that made their actions illegal (and the people who were supposed to enforce them). That is a genuine problem, when the CSS has theoretically great powers if it chooses to exercise them. The CSS comes into play during high stress crises, so we really should not be having people sit on the CSS if they don't handle high stress crises well.
RE: CSS Recall of Sam111 - HEM - 03-02-2016
I think Eluvatar and GR have just made two very good, and level-headed, points.
RE: CSS Recall of Sam111 - Lord Ravenclaw - 03-02-2016
I would argue that flipping to a major ally (that supported the Coalition - at least two CSS Members and the current VD can confirm that, as can the opposing cabinet.) during the actual event itself is indicative of remorse for their actions. I didn't find it something to sing loudly about, for numerous reasons. See the previous thread for my comments on that.
There are several ways this can go. As it stands, I dislike the general arguments being thrown about - especially the liberal use of the word "security threat". Everyone in this region has the potential to be a security threat, from there we have to classify whether they are an active or a dormant security threat. Some of the people making that argument are making me cringe. Stop throwing it around, it doesn't help the discussion by using shock and awe tactics nor are we getting anywhere by lumping people into categories or throwing labels around.
I support the recall (as I've said for the fourth time) on the grounds that it was a bad situation, and yes, he was involved in it. I think this thread is unnecessarily divisive and personal - on both sides. There is very little civility here, and it has become less about "Sam done something really bad and needs to be removed from the CSS" and has become more "I don't like X because Y, Z, A".
Short version:
1. I do not dispute he done wrong.
2. I dispute the claim he has shown no remorse - see previous thread re: Flipping.
3. I disagree with the general attitudes and manner of debate on both sides.
4. I disagree with how personal this thread has become.
RE: CSS Recall of Sam111 - Kris Kringle - 03-02-2016
I don't think it is impossible for SJS Republic to feel remorse, but I strongly believe that he should express that remorse to the People of the South Pacific, not in private conversations to the Government of the North Pacific. Had you not revealed this to us, it would never even be known. I certainly did not know, and I was one of the main leaders in the response to the coup.
My point is that there are many ways to express remorse, all of them proportional to the action. Attempting to overthrow the government is serious enough that remorse should be expressed to the whole region, not in private to a foreign government. Or if he is not remorseful and does not regret his actions, he should say as much. Right now we don't even know how he feels about the whole ordeal, because we only hear that he told X person or Y person in private, but nothing directly from him.
Please don't get me wrong. I completely appreciate the support of the North Pacific during the coup. I have publicly thanked it several times, and I stand by that. What I mean is that SJS is accountable to us, not to other regions.
My point is that there are many ways to express remorse, all of them proportional to the action. Attempting to overthrow the government is serious enough that remorse should be expressed to the whole region, not in private to a foreign government. Or if he is not remorseful and does not regret his actions, he should say as much. Right now we don't even know how he feels about the whole ordeal, because we only hear that he told X person or Y person in private, but nothing directly from him.
Please don't get me wrong. I completely appreciate the support of the North Pacific during the coup. I have publicly thanked it several times, and I stand by that. What I mean is that SJS is accountable to us, not to other regions.
RE: CSS Recall of Sam111 - Wolf - 03-04-2016
So the recall vote has failed, by a fairly significant amount as well.
It's apparently the case that enough of the region trusts Sam to allow him to remain on the CSS. Now that we've established this fact, I wonder if the Delegate will restore Sam's officer status within the region or if Sam will be a CSS member simply in name only?