+- The South Pacific (https://tspforums.xyz)
+-- Forum: Hall of Historical Records (https://tspforums.xyz/forum-8.html)
+--- Forum: Archives (https://tspforums.xyz/forum-141.html)
+---- Forum: Fudgetopia Hall of Government (https://tspforums.xyz/forum-12.html)
+----- Forum: Assembly of the South Pacific (https://tspforums.xyz/forum-91.html)
+----- Thread: [DEBATING] A1906.01: Alignment Act (/thread-7189.html)
RE: Alignment Act - Tsunamy - 06-07-2019
(06-06-2019, 01:55 PM)sandaoguo Wrote:(06-06-2019, 10:02 AM)Tsunamy Wrote: I'm fully opposed to this. I agree with Viet that we can't encode an ideology and, if this is something we want to do you have to prohibit specific actions from being taken rather that using what can become a meaningless term.
Also, and while I don't want to have this argument *again*, TSP needs to serve TSP's interests and not be subsumed into some wider NS interest and obssession.
“TSP needs to serve TSP’s interests” is wholly meaningless. It is an ideology in its self, by the way, where TSP leaders decide what can and can’t count as in our interests (and that’s usually... “don’t be defender”). This is very reminiscent of US media treating centrism as non-ideological, which may put my point in a light you’re intimately familiar with.
I’ve explained a lot of the issues with our region over the past 5 years in my address yesterday: https://tspforums.xyz/thread-7188-post-187078.html#pid187078
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So, to be fair, I feel like the "End of the term" address is a rehash of arguments that have been made before.
And, yes, Glen, I understand the fact that putting TSP first is an ideology in of itself. I've been doing it for my entire time in the game.
Here are my questions: How will our current allies react? Specifically, TNP? And, which regions are waiting in the wings to ally with us?
RE: [DEBATING] A1906.01: Alignment Act - Amerion - 06-07-2019
Given that this topic has elements relating to the military and TSP's security, I request that the Chair, @Bzerneleg, relocate it to the Private Halls of this body.
RE: [DEBATING] A1906.01: Alignment Act - sandaoguo - 06-07-2019
For the record, the response in the GP community actually hasn’t been any kind of shitstorm.
@Tsu: TNP allies and works with defender regions already. If they suddenly have a problem with it... so what? We should place their opinion over our own? It’s very unlikely TNP will have a negative reaction, given that all of Gameplay already considers TSP defender in all but legal name.
As for future allies, XKI is at the top of the list. But thinking of this in terms of “which gets us more allies” is wrong and is how we get ourselves into BS. If we want to maximize immediate allies, we should declare ourselves imperialists, purge all defenders from TSP, and then ally with Osiris, Europeia, LKE, TWP, TBH, etc. That would be “easy” enough. There’s definitely more immediate potential by going Raider. But that’s not who we are.
In my long-term vision, we build up the defender part of the game back to what it was at the height of the Founderless Regions Alliance. The more we advocate for defending, the more players we can attract to become defenders. The more players who are defender, the more regions there will be created for defenders. And over time, *that’s* where the greatest potential is for a strong alliance network.
RE: [DEBATING] A1906.01: Alignment Act - Penguin - 06-07-2019
Why? What exactly are we defending people from? I remember way back in the day kicking Nazi faces but is that still being done? Are UCRs in such great danger that TSP declaring a label is going to change the face of NS? I understand you want to work with people and being things back but I'm really struggling to see a point besides "people will like us". I don't mean to sound flippant but leaning heavily or not I feel like this WILL change things.
RE: [DEBATING] A1906.01: Alignment Act - sandaoguo - 06-07-2019
(06-07-2019, 11:43 AM)Penguin Wrote: Why? What exactly are we defending people from? I remember way back in the day kicking Nazi faces but is that still being done? Are UCRs in such great danger that TSP declaring a label is going to change the face of NS? I understand you want to work with people and being things back but I'm really struggling to see a point besides "people will like us". I don't mean to sound flippant but leaning heavily or not I feel like this WILL change things.
We're defending people from having their regions invaded for laughs, being kicked out of their own RMBs and told to suck it up and move on. Yes, we can still raid Nazi regions-- antifa is not incompatible with being defender. Yes, UCRs are being raided and destroyed all the time!
The point is: do you want TSP to go around invading and destroying other people's regions for fun? Banning them from their own regions for a night of our own activity, then moving on to the next? Sticking their shock and frustration of having their home ruined right back in their faces when we glorify those missions in our updates? Does that sound like TSP? Not to me. We take pride in protecting people's rights here, especially their right to be in their own region. Why would we work so hard to do that here, and then go do the exact opposite in other regions people are just trying to build up and have fun creating?
And yeah, I actually do think TSP can change the game. TRR did it when they joined the Founderless Regions Alliance. There's nothing in the game saying TSP can't strive to do the same thing in this new era. The first step is actually vocally embracing being defender, because that's what matches our values the best.
RE: [DEBATING] A1906.01: Alignment Act - Roavin - 06-07-2019
(06-07-2019, 11:43 AM)Penguin Wrote: I remember way back in the day kicking Nazi faces but is that still being done?
Yes, and in fact SPSF has been quite a significant force in those efforts in the past >2 years (dozens of nazi regions torched by, or with the aid of, SPSF), and we'd continue to do that ("hateful ideologies").
RE: [DEBATING] A1906.01: Alignment Act - Penguin - 06-07-2019
sandaoguo dateline quote' Wrote: The point is: do you want TSP to go around invading and destroying other people's regions for fun? Banning them from their own regions for a night of our own activity, then moving on to the next? Sticking their shock and frustration of having their home ruined right back in their faces when we glorify those missions in our updates? Does that sound like TSP? Not to me. We take pride in protecting people's rights here, especially their right to be in their own region. Why would we work so hard to do that here, and then go do the exact opposite in other regions people are just trying to build up and have fun creating?
Please correct me if I’m Wrong but in my memory TSP never did that..... We did raids as liberation?
RE: [DEBATING] A1906.01: Alignment Act - sandaoguo - 06-08-2019
TSP definitely did raid like that, when we were allied with raider/imperialist regions. As our alliances shifted more to regions in the defender sphere, and raiders grew more antagonistic towards us, TSP participation in raids has decreased. We haven’t had a pro-raider MoMA for at least the past year. And the point a lot of us are making now is that we need to just declare ourselves defender so that we can collect the benefits of being unabashedly defender.
Right now, we’re getting all the downsides and very little of the benefits. “Join the SPSF, we don’t stand for anything in particular” is not as good of a recruitment strategy than “Join the SPSF and fight the forces of oppression across the game” would be. FA-wise, it’s really a mess, and yes it really does fluctuate every 4 months. We can’t continue on this pattern of wanting to ally with TWP and open relations with Osiris January through April, and then reverse that course when a defender gets elected to serve April through August, and so on and so forth. That actually does keep happening, and each time we’re basically starting over from the beginning in FA, and other regions get wary because of it. In fact, the reaction to this in GP — even from people like Cormac! — has been positive for that very reason.
Declaring defender will increase our ability to recruit for the SPSF, stabilize our FA by making our natural allies obvious, all while not actually radically changing TSP’s culture and identity because we already hold the same values as the broader defender community.
RE: [DEBATING] A1906.01: Alignment Act - Seraph - 06-09-2019
I don't get involved in R/D or NSGP, but I've always had the most sympathy for defenders, as IC they seem the clear good guys and OOC there is a genuine risk of certain kinds of raiders causing genuine harm to some small communities in NS and I support the rights of those communities to play as they see fit, provided they aren't harming anyone else. Despite this, I have tended to see our defender-leaning non-alignment as the right course of action for an open and welcoming Feeder, as it seemed to provide the most opportunity for new nations to the game.
The arguments I've read here and on Discord, however, have convinced me that we can offer the same or similar range of opportunities, whilst declaring ourselves officially Defender and potentially shaking up those aspects of the game which have recently turned stale. I think it would also give us a clearer identity without taking away from the culture we've already developed. I'm in favour, so long as however we do this still allows SPSF members to perform a range of activities to give them a relatively rounded introduction to R/D.
RE: [DEBATING] A1906.01: Alignment Act - The Sakhalinsk Empire - 06-09-2019
Seeing as though there's heavy debate on this topic, I'd like to make a quick survey on what you people think of the act.
Survey