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+------ Thread: 2016 in America (/thread-2449.html)
2016 in America - Resentine - 03-09-2016
(03-09-2016, 12:11 PM)Punchwood Wrote: Well of course you won't say Res and other Sanders supports are becoming aggressive as you support them! Yet if I was to say something "rude" like I don't like your avatar, you guys would come down on me like a ton of bricks. I'm the odd one out here.
I'm pretty sure the "rudest" thing that I've suggested is that you do your own research before you post something and make sure that you fact check your sources before jumping to conclusions.
RE: 2016 in America - Punchwood - 03-09-2016
I will try my best to respond to Res's points tonight, but before I do so can you just answer me this: How do you propose business large and small could afford to pay a $15 minimum wage?
RE: 2016 in America - Kris Kringle - 03-09-2016
(03-09-2016, 11:56 AM)Punchwood Wrote: are now denying the truth and reading the only bits they want to read
But Punch, that's exactly what you're doing. You haven't addressed any of Res's points, or his sources.
RE: 2016 in America - Punchwood - 03-09-2016
(03-09-2016, 12:23 PM)Kris Kringle Wrote: But Punch, that's exactly what you're doing. You haven't addressed any of Res's points, or his sources.
Points above!
RE: 2016 in America - Darkstrait - 03-09-2016
(03-09-2016, 12:23 PM)Punchwood Wrote:(03-09-2016, 12:23 PM)Kris Kringle Wrote: But Punch, that's exactly what you're doing. You haven't addressed any of Res's points, or his sources.
Points above!
for the umpteenth time, Resentine wrote like five hundred words responding to those points like fifteen posts ago. nothing you've said since then covers that post.
RE: 2016 in America - Punchwood - 03-09-2016
(03-09-2016, 12:26 PM)Darkstrait Wrote: for the umpteenth time, Resentine wrote like five hundred words responding to those points like fifteen posts ago. nothing you've said since then covers that post.
And for the last time I'm going to reply tonight. I'm so depressed right now I can't be bothered, be patient!
2016 in America - Resentine - 03-09-2016
(03-09-2016, 12:22 PM)Punchwood Wrote: How do you propose business large and small could afford to pay a $15 minimum wage?
1. Price increases. I'll steal PBS's example of the Big Mac:
"Think of it this way: You’re running a McDonald’s selling 1,000 hamburgers a day. You make, say, 75 cents on each Big Mac costing $3.99. Will you raise its price by a nickel to $4.04 in order to make up for an increase in the minimum wage? That would be silly, because $4.04 is not an attractive number, and you’d lose too many sales as a consequence. Rather, you’d be satisfied with a lower profit margin on a Big Mac of 70 cents. But you notice that the Big Mac Meal is selling for $5.69; that gives you the opportunity to raise its price to the next attractive number of $5.75 in order to make up for the increased cost of labor. Will the demand for Big Mac Meals decline? It is doubtful that customers will even notice that tiny increase in price. Hence, Krueger concludes, 'The net effect is basically no change in overall employment.' Profits might decline slightly, but not on every item. There are offsetting benefits as well: 'decently paid workers tend to do a better job.'" -PBS
TL;DR small price increases could easily pay for a $15 minimum wage, and most consumers would barely notice the effects, however, employees would be able to live better lives, afford healthier food, pay the rising rent prices in urban areas, etc, etc, etc. This can easily work for big and small business without effecting their current customer intake in a significant way.
2. Decreasing CEO/executive pay. Again, we go to PBS.
"CEO compensation these days is roughly $7,000 an hour (that is, assuming a 40-hour workweek). In fact, CEO-to-average worker pay has increased by a factor of 15 from the 1960s ratio of 20 to 1 to the present whopping 300 to 1. But in some companies it is astronomical. At Chipotle the ratio is 1,522 to 1. Yes, you read it right. That is not a typo. In some firms, the CEO makes nearly 2,000 times as much as the average worker. At Walmart the ratio is 1,133. Do these CEOs deserve their millions? Not by a long shot. Take the CEO of Coca Cola company. He still pockets $25 million. His rival, the CEO of Pepsico writes a check to himself for $22 million. Yet, I have not heard any of the Republican presidential hopefuls suggest that these millions are hurting our exports. A pittance to the coolies hurts the economy, but the millions to their bosses are quite all right."-PBS
TL;DR CEO pay has gone up from a 20:1(Compared to workers) ratio in the 60's to a 300:1 ratio in the modern era, which is far greater than the "increase" of minimum wage(which was last increased in 2009, but, failed to meet inflation from the last time it was raised to $7.25). If big businesses can afford to pay thier CEOs and shareholders Billions of dollars a year, they should be able to afford increasing the minimum wage to a place where people can afford to live off it.
No, PBS isn't my only source, but, the examples are good.
However, another fair example is something I like to call Economics 101. If you pay people more, they will have more to spend, and in turn will spend more, or save more to spend later. That's core basic economics, the basis of how economics works, so, I dunno what else I can do to convince you.
( http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sense/why-raising-the-minimum-wage-is-good-economics/ ) - PBS piece on the minimum wage
( http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/07/23/5-facts-about-the-minimum-wage/ ) - Pew Research facts on the current minimum wage
( http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/walter-e-williams/minimum-wage-dishonesty ) - CNS Commentary peice one Big Business dishonesty on the minimum wage [NOTE: It is a Commentary/Editorial. While it has some facts, it should be taken with a grain of salt]
( http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/local/2016/01/04/cuomo-raise-minimum-wage-suny-workers/78282598/ ) - Democrat & Chronicle piece on NY Governor Andrew Cuomo raising the minimum wage for all SUNY workers to $15.
RE: 2016 in America - Wolf - 03-09-2016
Resentine's examples are spot on and are the very basis of a Capitalist economy. Even Karl Marx, "father" of Communism, accurately understood these principals and spoke about them, in great and detailed length, in his massive multi-volumed tome "Das Kapital".
Keep in mind Marx started publishing his theories on Capitalism in 1867, that's nearly 150 years ago and it's still just as applicable. Turns out the nature of how to make a profit in a Capitalism market really hasn't changed much since the industrial revolution. His work is so comprehensive and so relevant, even today, that major corporations include it as a "must read" for their upcoming executives.
Given that the basic ideas of how Capitalism works has existed for centuries now, with proven mathematical formulas to boot, it's absolutely ridiculous when these large corporation say "Ooooh, we don't know how to do that!" Trust me, they do, they know very, very well how to make it work. The problem is that it cuts into their (in some cases quite massive) profits and they are absolutely unwilling to part with their precious money even for the universal benefit of the country they pretend to be loyal to.
RE: 2016 in America - Punchwood - 03-09-2016
I've decided to leave this conversation there is no point in debating as none of you are even willing to listen to my arguments. Vote for Sanders for all the good it will do for you, he won't be the nominee. If he's lucky Clinton will give him a Cabinet role. Continue to believe a 74 year old (75 when the actual election is), socialist can bring Universal Health Care, free Universities, equal pay, maternity leave, a $15 minimum wage in just 4 years without huge rises in taxes, the deficit rising the rich flocking out in their droves along with business HQs, without millions of jobs being lost, and business going bust.
I support all those ideas but they cannot be done in 4 years and the damage that would do to the US economy would be huge. That's why I support Clinton she offers compromise. A rise in the minimum wage, making it easier for students to go to collage, expanding Medicaid, she supports equal pay and maternity leave. Yet she does it in a way that won't destroy the economy and will not enrage Republicans quite as much. I support everything Sanders stands for I believe in everything I listed however I recognise that it can't be done in just 4 or even 8 years time and having all of that "free" stuff will cost a hell of a lot.
Yes as Ryccia pointed out we do have basically all that stuff Sanders wants, yet we slowly built it up, we didn't just one day have all this "free" stuff. We spend £12 billion on our NHS for 5.295 million people, England spends £101.3 billion for 53.01 million people, how much would the US have to spend on its NHS? How could it afford that along with all the other "free" stuff Sanders wants? He can't just tax the rich as the rich will leave and anyway they don't produce enough cash for everything he wants. He would have to increase taxes on everyone including business by a lot.
I am sure the US can have everything Sanders wants in the future and by that I mean in 20-50 years, it's not that long for something that took Europe years and even now not every European country has universal health care let along everything else. Take baby steps not huge massive leaps that will just end in disaster, support a candidate that will start this new America and lead it to greatness.
Also even Sanders supporters don't believe all his ideas are realistic: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35623451
After writing this I think I will stay around but I'm not getting involved in any more debates about Sanders as clearly none of you are going to change your minds and I respect that but there is no point in me debating with people who won't change their minds.
RE: 2016 in America - Jay Coop - 03-09-2016
Why must the U.S. wait 20 to 50 years to have universal healthcare when every other industrialized country has it? It will not be more expensive. In fact, it will be cheaper because it will take the place of the expensive premiums that us Americans have to pay. When I get laid off or fired in the future, I don't want to go without coverage. I don't know if you know what it is like to be uninsured, but it is terrible to be uninsured in America. My own mother has health issues that need to be addressed, but they can't because she is retired and uninsured. My family cannot afford private healthcare.