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+----- Thread: [PASSED] Amendment to Article XIV - Great Councils (/thread-10461.html)
[PASSED] Amendment to Article XIV - Great Councils - sandaoguo - 05-17-2022
I propose the following amendment to the Charter, altering how Great Councils work. When I wrote the original article in the Charter, the purpose was to cement the new order at the time and make it incredibly difficult for the region to alter things. While that may have been reasonable at the time, given the circumstances of the region being in flux, all these years later the current article serves nothing more than to entrench a sclerotic status quo. Every era of the Coalition deserves to create the Coalition in its image. Great Councils are a part of our regional identity, and in all the years prior to the adoption of Article XIV didn't have such onerous requirements to call one.
We've tended to catastrophize Great Councils, but in the past they didn't prove to be these disastrous events. To the contrary, Great Councils have tended to encourage new ideas and spark new activity in the community. We should return back to the traditional majority-based terms for calling these events.
Quote:XIV. GREAT COUNCILS
Setting a procedure for constitutional conventions.
(1) When the Assembly wishes to debate the fundamental principles and structures of the Coalition, it may call a Great Council to rewrite all laws in their entirety, or establish a new state for the South Pacific.
(2) A resolution establishing a Great Council may be adopted with a three-fifths supermajority of the Assembly, which must be confirmed by a majority vote of the gameside community.
(3) The purpose of a Great Council is to rewrite all laws from the ground up, not merely to amend existing ones. The Assembly should use the normal amendment process for basic amendments, reserving Great Councils for a time when extreme changes are necessary and proper.
(4) Any and all changes to regional law proposed by a Great Council may be adopted by a three-fifths supermajority of the Assembly, which must be confirmed by a majority vote of the game-side community.
(5) If a Great Council fails to pass a new constitution and set of laws to replace the existing ones, then the existing laws will remain in place.
(6) At least one year must have passed since the previous Great Council before a new one may be established.
(1) The Assembly may call a constitutional convention, wherein the Charter and laws of the Coalition can be rewritten or amended in a systematic manner. These conventions shall be known as Great Councils and be presided over by a chair responsible for maintaining decorum, compiling proposals, recognizing motions, and recording votes.
(2) Great Councils shall operate in parallel to the Assembly, which will still be convened under regular order. Participation in Great Councils is determined in the organizing resolution, where the Assembly may expand eligibility beyond legislators or restrict eligibility by criteria it deems fit.
(3) Great Councils may only be called once per year, unless in the intervening time the legitimacy of the Coalition has been challenged and the Assembly must reassert constitutional order.
(4) In calling a Great Council, the Assembly shall pass an organizing resolution by majority vote, naming a chair, determining eligibility requirements, and establishing an agenda and rules of order. Organizing resolutions may be altered by majority vote of the Great Council once convened.
(5) Changes or additions to the constitutional canon of the Coalition may be adopted by a three-fifths majority of the Great Council. Changes or additions to regular statutory law may be adopted by simple majority of the Great Council.
(6) Great Councils shall remain convened until a motion to adjourn sine die is adopted by simple majority.
RE: Amendment to Article XIV - Great Councils - Moon - 05-18-2022
Support, I've been meaning to pursue such a change ever since Roavin pointed it out to me in the Discord server.
RE: Amendment to Article XIV - Great Councils - Jay Coop - 05-18-2022
(05-17-2022, 09:51 PM)sandaoguo Wrote: (3) Great Councils may only be called once per year, unless in the intervening time the legitimacy of the Coalition has been challenged and the Assembly must reassert constitutional order.There must be a better way to phrase this in legal terms because I can foresee a debate about what constitutes a challenge to the legitimacy of the Coalition.
RE: Amendment to Article XIV - Great Councils - HumanSanity - 05-18-2022
Full support for the concept.
(05-18-2022, 03:28 AM)Jay Coop Wrote: There must be a better way to phrase this in legal terms because I can foresee a debate about what constitutes a challenge to the legitimacy of the Coalition.I get it, but I like Glen's phrasing. We don't know exactly what a future "challenge to the legitimacy of the Coalition" might look like, but we do know that one might necessitate a Great Council. It might look like a coup, an internal schism, a mass resignation, etc. Vagueness in language isn't always a bad thing, sometimes it creates flexibility.
RE: Amendment to Article XIV - Great Councils - Jebediah - 05-18-2022
(05-18-2022, 03:28 AM)Jay Coop Wrote:(05-17-2022, 09:51 PM)sandaoguo Wrote: (3) Great Councils may only be called once per year, unless in the intervening time the legitimacy of the Coalition has been challenged and the Assembly must reassert constitutional order.There must be a better way to phrase this in legal terms because I can foresee a debate about what constitutes a challenge to the legitimacy of the Coalition.
Honestly, the best thing I can think of for this is to just to replace this requirement to not calling a GC until 40 days have passed after the end of a previous one. This version of a GC is just a good structure in order to do what the assembly normally does with larger issues - if the assembly decides it needs that structure, they can set it up. So, there's not much reason to limit it to once a year. In all likelihood, we won't need this kind of thing very often, and it won't be called all the time. If we do need it, then it can be called relatively quickly. And if end up somehow hosting one four times a year because we like the structure and it works well (and doesn't end up causing massive changes very frequently) then it wouldn't be so bad a thing.
The only real problem I can see coming out of this is if we don't trust a supermajority of our assembly to not make a great council to replace our consitution every other month... and I think it goes without saying that that shouldn't be a problem.
The 40 days thing is so we don't get people trying to have them at the same time or excessively close together specifically to conflict with each other, but I wouldn't mind it being slightly longer or shorter. Even just "not two at the same time" would probably be fine.
RE: Amendment to Article XIV - Great Councils - Belschaft - 05-18-2022
I don't agree with lowering the threshold for calling a constitutional convention to a simple majority.
RE: Amendment to Article XIV - Great Councils - HumanSanity - 05-18-2022
(05-18-2022, 02:15 PM)Belschaft Wrote: I don't agree with lowering the threshold for calling a constitutional convention to a simple majority.
It doesn't really matter if changes still require a three-fifths majority to be implemented. Glen's proposal keeps vote thresholds on changes the same, it just makes it easier to establish a formal process for debating and discussing those changes, which is not remotely a bad thing.
RE: Amendment to Article XIV - Great Councils - sandaoguo - 05-18-2022
The provision on how many Great Councils can be called in a given period of time is addressing two issues:
First, preventing recurring Great Councils that diminish the importance of the conventions.
Second, ensuring the former limitation doesn't prevent the region from holding a Great Council when one is needed to reassert constitutional order (e.g. following a coup). That doesn't mean a Great Council must be held after every coup, or any time constitutional order breaks down, but just that we should have the option even if a Great Council was already held within the last year.
What counts as a constitutional crisis or a legitimacy crisis is up to the Assembly, there's no realistic way to remove popular judgment there. Instead of raising a question of legitimacy in the wording, what about this?
(3) Great Councils may only be called once per year, unless the Assembly must call an extraordinary Great Council to restore or reaffirm constitutional order.
RE: Amendment to Article XIV - Great Councils - Roavin - 05-19-2022
I support this. I would also no longer be blanket opposed to a Great Council under these provisions.
One thing, though: the Charter, as currently written, is very self-preservative in Nature, and by only mentioning a possible establishment of a new state in the GC clause, it ensures that a GC would be the only legal way to remove the Coalition (coopting any other means one might take). With that no longer being in there, that could be interpreted such that another route could be taken (Assembly vote or whatnot) to end the Coalition, and I think it would be safer if the Charter continues to have something (no matter if explicit or if implicit as before) that makes sure that the burden of dissolving the Coalition is incredibly high.
RE: Amendment to Article XIV - Great Councils - Tsunamy - 05-19-2022
At first blush, I though this seems pretty innocuous, but I whole heartedly object this to this clause:
Quote:(5) Changes or additions to the constitutional canon of the Coalition may be adopted by a three-fifths majority of the Great Council. Changes or additions to regular statutory law may be adopted by simple majority of the Great Council.
Especially since the organizing principle here would allow for the restriction of who can participate. Imo, any changes should still be enacted by full Assembly vote and with the gameside assent.
As written, this would allow a simple majority to push through a GC and then only 3/5 of the participants in the GC participants to make changes to the entire Charter.