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+----- Thread: Abolish the Local Council (/thread-10635.html)
Abolish the Local Council - Comfed - 07-18-2022
I'm going to say it because no one else has. The Local Council is a failure of an institution. They are nothing but glorified RMB moderators, which is not a function they should fulfill, and they fail to serve as a gameside government, which is a function that would be much more desirable. Worse, the institution of the Local Council also has made the gameside a third rail in political discussions, where the "forum government" cannot step in to fill any of the roles that they fail to fill because that would be seen as intruding onto the LC's turf. It should be abolished, and so should the notion of an independent gameside government. The forum is TSP's government and we should design systems to recognize that.
RE: Abolish the Local Council - Pronoun - 07-18-2022
Abolishing the Local Council is, frankly, a terrible way to frame a good argument. Most of all, it accentuates a false "on-site" and "off-site" dichotomy. As I argued the last time we had a formal debate on abolishing the Local Council, any sort of "gameside" and "forumside" divide in our government misses the point. If we look at our current charter, the Local Council is specifically established as "the local government of the in-game community." A narrative of abolishing the Local Council implies leaving a void in-game. Instead, we should be aiming to integrate the Local Council and the rest of the government.
The truth of the matter is that the Local Council is deeply and systemically flawed, primarly because simply electing three people is no way to structure a government. Nevertheless, the existing de jure role of the Local Council to "encourage activity on the gameside" is worth consideration.
I will use the recent SwanVision event as an example. By all accounts as far as I'm aware, the Local Council ran a successful event with twenty participants and opportunities for citizens to engage through regional polls. At the same time, the idea of running a Pride-themed regional poll delayed until the end of June because SwanVision was running, well after TSPride had already ended. We could use some of the spark and inspiration behind SwanVision in the Ministry of Culture; and while the conflict in schedules between TSPride and SwanVision wasn't the biggest issue, it does highlight the inherent challenges in communication that arise from two government entities running regional events.
My question is: why not combine the two? Why must the narrative be abolishing the Local Council in order to recognize that "the forum is TSP's government"? Or, conversely, why must the narrative be preserving the Local Council as we know it? I think we'd all be better off if we considered the functions we envision the Local Council serving (or not serving), rather than considering the Local Council as an entity and then debating whether it exists. When we do that, I think we'll find that an "in-game" and "off-site" divide helps no one.
RE: Abolish the Local Council - A bee - 07-18-2022
I've mentioned the discrepancy between The Coalition and the region in mutual understanding of communities in the preparatory debate. I purposefully avoided using the terms ''game-side'' and ''forum-side'' because, quite frankly, both are games. This thread was going to be opened at some point, whether specifically talking about LC or RMB moderation or whatever. Let's all keep in mind that this is a huge topic, where 'abolishing LC' is merely one of many signs of something not functioning properly.
I'm against abolishing LC, I'm in favor of reforming it by tying it closer to the Delegate. This set of reforms go into detail. However, I wish to first see the community's general thoughts on this topic. The goal is to try and re-draft the proposal which main underlying ideas align with at least a basic form of consensus from other players (providing a base for everyone to discuss on further into specifics). Community feedback would be greatly appreciated, as detailed as possible. I honestly can't see this set of issues (or the LC specifically) being essentially resolved without wide participation and a plethora of differing views being publicly expressed.
I'm against abolishing LC, I'm in favor of reforming it by tying it closer to the Delegate. This set of reforms go into detail. However, I wish to first see the community's general thoughts on this topic. The goal is to try and re-draft the proposal which main underlying ideas align with at least a basic form of consensus from other players (providing a base for everyone to discuss on further into specifics). Community feedback would be greatly appreciated, as detailed as possible. I honestly can't see this set of issues (or the LC specifically) being essentially resolved without wide participation and a plethora of differing views being publicly expressed.
RE: Abolish the Local Council - im_a_waffle1 - 07-18-2022
(07-18-2022, 05:48 PM)Comfed Wrote: -snip-
The forum is TSP's government and we should design systems to recognize that.
Some of this I somewhat agree with, and some of it I very strongly disagree with. But this last sentence really made me kind of angry.
This is a fundamentally flawed view of NationStates as a whole. NationStates is a web game, where people participate on the site to participate in site activities. Now yes, communities branching off-site is a side-effect of the fact that the game does not provide satisfactory ways to communicate with others in a meaningful way, but the game still exists. What is the point of TSP without TSP? While a move to run everything from the forum seems like an improvement, and it is! In the short-term. While you may believe that abolishing the Local Council and creating a government that is totally controlled by the forum is great, I know the RMB will be slightly annoyed and then angry. Even with the LC, I have seen some calls to get rid of the off-site government. While you may believe that the RMBers would never be able to organize, they can and have organized united fronts before.
Because, what you have failed to realize is that the vast, vast majority of the endorsements of the Delegate come from these RMBers who expect Local Council and Delegate elections. And one day, after you've taken them away, they stop listening to the endorsement orders... and that's when you have an issue. Sure, it may be a very hypothetical issue that may not happen at all, but even the slightest risk of a coup should be eliminated, right?
And no, sending a strongly worded letter to the LC was never going to work out. Haven't you ever been in a history class before? We need to enact actual change. That's what the GC is for- changing things for the better, not making them worse.
RE: Abolish the Local Council - Drystar - 07-18-2022
I’ve been a LC a few times, and I do have some opinions on it. I’m open to the idea of change to the concept, and there should be some overhaul to connect it to the region government instead of just leaving it out there limping along.
RE: Abolish the Local Council - Comfed - 07-18-2022
(07-18-2022, 11:07 PM)im_a_waffle1 Wrote: Because, what you have failed to realize is that the vast, vast majority of the endorsements of the Delegate come from these RMBers who expect Local Council and Delegate elections.
Actually, they don't. The vast majority of endorsements come from nations who are just doing their thing answering issues and being in the WA, barely engaging with the RMB or government at all.
Really, the fictitious notions of gameside independence are just ones that we have made up. The fact is, the government of TSP is, and rightfully so, located on the forums.
RE: Abolish the Local Council - Pronoun - 07-18-2022
(07-18-2022, 11:41 PM)Comfed Wrote: The fact is, the government of TSP is, and rightfully so, located on the forums.
Much of our current government engages in debate and discussion on the forums. That's very different from the government being 'located' on the forums. You reference this yourself when you point out that "the 'forum government' cannot step in to fill any of the roles" that are delegated to the Local Council! That's only a problem because far from being 'located on the forums,' our government has significant roles to fulfill outside of the forums as well, such as mass telegrams, endorsements, influence, and dispatches, just to name a few.
RE: Abolish the Local Council - Jay Coop - 07-18-2022
(07-18-2022, 11:07 PM)im_a_waffle1 Wrote: Because, what you have failed to realize is that the vast, vast majority of the endorsements of the Delegate come from these RMBers who expect Local Council and Delegate elections.
I truly don't think so. I more so expect that the vast majority of endorsements for the delegate come from the delegate endorsing them and periodic telegrams reminding people to endorse the delegate.
RE: Abolish the Local Council - Drystar - 07-18-2022
(07-18-2022, 11:41 PM)Comfed Wrote:(07-18-2022, 11:07 PM)im_a_waffle1 Wrote: Because, what you have failed to realize is that the vast, vast majority of the endorsements of the Delegate come from these RMBers who expect Local Council and Delegate elections.
Actually, they don't. The vast majority of endorsements come from nations who are just doing their thing answering issues and being in the WA, barely engaging with the RMB or government at all.
Really, the fictitious notions of gameside independence are just ones that we have made up. The fact is, the government of TSP is, and rightfully so, located on the forums.
Functionality does not imply right. It just works. Let’s not make it some divine calling. I’ve seen what happens here if you ignore the “barely engaged” people. It’s far better to have them involved in some ways then to ignore them and have it blow up in your face.
RE: Abolish the Local Council - Jay Coop - 07-19-2022
In any event, I'm broadly supportive of having the Ministry of Culture subsume the responsibilities of the Local Council, which is something that Pronoun appeared to suggest.