Big Discord dump incoming. For Sunshine purposes as well as to continue discussion on how to make OWL work better.

Quote:[12:16 PM] HumanSanity: We really need OWL to be doing stuff. SC Declarations have been released. If we can't be bothered to get out recommendations and votes on somewhat reasonable timeframes on these, not only are we losing the ability to stack/stomp on individual votes, but we're basically solidifying the perception we regionally have nothing to offer in terms of WA discussion, debate, or drafting at a significant moment in the WA's evolution and history, which will have a long-term negative effect on our soft power and institutional influence.
[12:16 PM] moonfungus: Oh
[12:16 PM] moonfungus: nvm
[12:18 PM] Luca: I obviously agree entirely, the WA is a topic I like a lot, but TSP's WA presence has been absent for a while, and it's costing us valuable influence and discussion activity.
[12:19 PM] WS got deja vu.: yeah i'm gonna have a conversation with anjo. i'll add that to my future agenda in the meeting thingy
[12:20 PM] moonfungus: One thing I would like to point out is that half of our OWL Senior Staff (there's 4, unless i'm forgetting someone) are basically foreigners (Cretox and Melons), while the rest is anjo (who's also the Director) and Hya (who's been MIA for a while due RL).

[rest of message redacted]
[12:20 PM] Luca: Yes  Moon 
[12:20 PM] WS got deja vu.: yes.
[12:21 PM] moonfungus: So we can take the shortcut route and promote more Senior Staff, while giving Cretox and Melons a more clearly defined role in what they contribute to OWL.
[12:21 PM] HumanSanity: Is there a way that the MoE Dispatch service could offer a pathway around the bifrucation of OWL staff into Senior and non-Senior?
[12:21 PM] WS got deja vu.: i really REALLY need to learn how to OWL
\
moonfungus
So we can take the shortcut route and promote more Senior Staff, while giving Cretox and Melons a more clearly defined role in what they contribute to OWL.
[12:21 PM] HumanSanity: Or we could get rid of plants.
[12:21 PM] WS got deja vu.: yeah.
[12:21 PM] WS got deja vu.:[redacted]
[12:22 PM] Luca: Reiterating what I said from last time (https://discord.com/channels/12142994326...2141336606), I'm not sure that our current structure is really set up for success, Anjo or no. The fact is that our discussion system means we don't really have back and forth engagement. So it's mostly Anjo pinging staff and asking them to collect posts. We don't have any debates and it's actually inconvenient for the bot system if a debate took place. 

For those of us in the program, I think that puts a damper on interest in the first place. For what remains, the actual voting process is tied up in senior staff who are largely absent .
[12:22 PM] WS got deja vu.: yeah

HumanSanity
Or we could get rid of plants.
[12:22 PM] moonfungus: I wouldn't call them plants, more like foreign liasons who haven't been sorted properly in the first place.

WS got deja vu.
[redacted]
[12:22 PM] HumanSanity: [redacted]

moonfungus
I wouldn't call them plants, more like foreign liasons who haven't been sorted properly in the first place.
[12:23 PM] Luca: I mean Cretox joined every WA ministry in the game.
[12:23 PM] moonfungus: We could create a new role for them and promote more TSP peeps to that role
[12:23 PM] Luca: Except i don't think he could figure out how to get into NPO
[12:23 PM] moonfungus: like Ero or Luca or someone else

Luca
Except i don't think he could figure out how to get into NPO
[12:23 PM] moonfungus: Xoriet blocked him, last I heard.
[12:23 PM] moonfungus: lmao
[12:24 PM] WS got deja vu.: OWL senior staff needs to be like Osheiga, Quebec, Luca, not Cretox and Melons
[12:24 PM] HumanSanity: We could also eliminate "Senior Staff"
[12:24 PM] moonfungus: I would suggest not promoting current Ministers to another leadership role, as it might limit their effectiveness.
[12:24 PM] WS got deja vu.: that too, yeah
[12:24 PM] WS got deja vu.: fair enough
[12:24 PM] HumanSanity: The only reason you need some senior and some non-senior staff is access to the nation to post the Dispatches
[12:24 PM] Luca: What I would like to see is our WA office actually release more traditional, independent, recommendation. Something that doesn't just recycle content that's already been written by other people (some questionable sources, some genuinely bad takes) and present them as possibilities. But, instead, something that focuses exclusively on what TSP believes and how TSP citizens feel, politically.
[12:25 PM] HumanSanity: If MoE is working on a tool to allow anyone to remotely access the nation to post a Dispatch, then the distinction between Senior and non-Senior staff is unnecessary

Luca
What I would like to see is our WA office actually release more traditional, independent, recommendation. Something that doesn't just recycle content that's already been written by other people (some questionable sources, some genuinely bad takes) and present them as possibilities. But, instead, something that focuses exclusively on what TSP believes and how TSP citizens feel, politically.
[12:25 PM] HumanSanity: I also agree with Luca. And that would be a better way to build up soft power/influence because it would make our contributions more structured and nuanced
[12:26 PM] WS got deja vu.: i'm gonna copy this log and make a post in cabinet office forum lately
[12:26 PM] WS got deja vu.: later*
[12:26 PM] Tin: Damn I took 20 minutes
[12:26 PM] WS got deja vu.: we need to have a serious discussiona bout how to fix OWL
[12:26 PM] Luca: Fine with me, WS. I've worked in WAA for a couple years, I'm happy to help with improving our systems.
[12:27 PM] Luca: Let me know what you need.
[12:27 PM] WS got deja vu.: great - also pinging @anjo bc we're gonna want your input.
[12:40 PM] anjo: I agree that the senior staff distinction should be removed, and technically the only thing that's getting in the way of that right now is that there's no way (that I know of) of posting to RMBs (for vote opening/closing notices) or reading telegrams (notice subscription and requests to not quote in dispatches) through the NS API and I don't have any experience on how to do this kind of stuff via interactions with normal http sites, so I for one am unable to create a method of doing these things, which are currently required for operation, in a way that can safely be used by any staff and not just the more long-time and trusted members. 
Regarding procedure and discussion, I don't know if I can be of much help there. I'm neither a great reformer by nature nor do I have the knowledge of people like Luca who've already worked with many other WA departments before, so I just continued the process my predecessors had developed.
[12:42 PM] HumanSanity:
posting to RMBs
Is ther ea reason votes have to be posted from the main OWL nation?
[12:42 PM] HumanSanity: Like... why can't people do it from a personal nation?
[12:44 PM] anjo: Keeping things orderly and in an official capacity, I'd say - the average voter nation likely won't know if nation x who just posted some notice actually is on OWL staff and has the authority to do that or just some random troll
Luca
What I would like to see is our WA office actually release more traditional, independent, recommendation. Something that doesn't just recycle content that's already been written by other people (some questionable sources, some genuinely bad takes) and present them as possibilities. But, instead, something that focuses exclusively on what TSP believes and how TSP citizens feel, politically.
[12:47 PM] moonfungus: Another thing I would like to say is that most TSP voters (no legitimate gripe against them) don't really elaborate their stances.
[12:48 PM] moonfungus: Like, I can count only three-four peeps that do (Jay, Luca, HS and Anjo) it consistently, but most just vote and leave.
[12:48 PM] moonfungus: I understand that not everyone can do it, but it gets frustrating at times to see that.

anjo
Keeping things orderly and in an official capacity, I'd say - the average voter nation likely won't know if nation x who just posted some notice actually is on OWL staff and has the authority to do that or just some random troll
[12:48 PM] HumanSanity: Normal trolls don't have templates and organization systems :p Given there's been no effort to promote new senior staff in months, or to give people a path to advancement in OWL, maybe just eliminate the distinction  Unnecessary hierarchy bothers me anyways, even more so when it introduces inefficiency.
[12:55 PM] anjo: An alternative to the RMB posts might be to create a new permanent dispatch like the GA & SC dashboards into which the current information on votes can be placed, and that could then ping the subscribers list. I guess this could also be put onto the WFE instead of the simple list that's currently there, so the problem of remotely editing the WFE would be solved. But I don't have ideas on how we could change the (un)subscribing/don't-quote-me procedure
[12:56 PM] Luca: Once again, I don't know why we need to chase down opinions of people outside the region.
[12:57 PM] Luca: The only purpose of doing so is to provide credibility and a spotlight to external powers at the expense of our own influence through self-promotion

Luca
Once again, I don't know why we need to chase down opinions of people outside the region.
[1:01 PM] moonfungus: Probably because there isn't much inside the region? Very few people elaborate their positions and prefer to simply vote for/against when voting on proposals. Seems to me that we don't discuss proposals that much. I have no idea if this is a culture thing though but it is frustating.
[1:01 PM] moonfungus: TLDR: we need to encourage in-depth discussions about things.
[1:02 PM] Luca: Yeah, but lack of activity in the region is not a cause to defer all influence to TNP (where we often reliably pull quotes from). Instead, it's a reason to develop our own activity and adjust our style to be more TSP development focused
[1:02 PM] moonfungus: We pull quotes from TNP regularly?
[1:03 PM] Luca: TNP's discussion board typically has debate and opinions from at least someone coherent.
[1:03 PM] moonfungus: From what I see, TNP likes their spammy one line votes much more than we do.
[1:03 PM] Luca: TRR does as well, but a lot of them get upset if they're quoted, so it's more avoided.
moonfungus
From what I see, TNP likes their spammy one line votes much more than we do.
[1:03 PM] Luca: The ones that do post long-form answers, like us, are experienced WA folks with agendas.
[1:04 PM] Luca: That can be trouble if someone quotes without realising what the internal aims are.
[1:07 PM] HumanSanity: In the immediate term, can we please get a vote up for the current SC vote and the upcoming Antifash Cormac Declaration?
[1:08 PM] HumanSanity: There hasn't been a new SC feature in almost 12 years. We're forgoing an opportunity to at least look alive if we don't get a Dispatch out and a vote in early on it
[1:09 PM] WS got deja vu.: ^^^