(04-06-2018, 07:50 PM)Belschaft Wrote: Since when were Legislators the only TSPers Glen? Limiting civil rights to only a few dozen out of hundreds of players in the region seems... I'm honestly not sure of the right word. Are you suggesting that citizens are foreigners now, and the only "true" TSPers are people on these forums?

I think it's pretty stupid, for lack of a better word, to try to apply this kind of intellectual framework to NationStates and TSP as a GCR. We have no power over immigration to our region. We can't password or pre-screen or anything like that. So an enemy can create a nation, and either appear in TSP automatically or move here with zero barriers at all, and suddenly they're afforded "citizen" status with a plethora of rights. I think that's a disaster waiting to happen. It's no way to run TSP as a GCR in NationStates.

These debates about democratic principles, civil rights, and whatnot, always happen without any context of what TSP is in this game. So it's useless intellectual exercise to sit here and debate about who is and isn't a "citizen", when the other side doesn't have a reasonable definition themselves. I think it's fairly easy to tell when somebody is a foreigner in TSP. Can that be objectively written into law with technical legal language, or some kind of legalese-based algorithm? Obviously not. Objectivity is not superior.

(04-06-2018, 09:22 PM)Roavin Wrote: Riffing on Bel's point regarding the 1 to 1 correlation between requirements for proscription and defined crimes, consider this: Instead of having a separate process for indivdiual legislators, have none for them at all and instead charge them with a crime as Bel said, but grant the court the permission to order reasonable preemptive measures upon request. Would you consider that a viable alternative?

No, I don't support anything like that. That is opposite of viable. Belschaft had zero problems with the Prohibited Groups law when he wrote it, but suddenly thinks the same process is an affront to constitutional rights when applying a scalpel to individuals, rather than taking a sledgehammer to entire groups? No thank you, ma'am.

I think our criminal law system is still a mess and has been for years. I don't think anybody should be looking at the ridiculous Cormac trial and go, "Oh geez, that's how we should handle everything!" I look at our history of criminal trials, with Cormac's being held up as some shining ideal, and think, "Jesus Christ, that's a ridiculous process for a game. It's horrendously inefficient, clearly susceptible to abuse, and doesn't do anything to actually address problematic people in the months a trial takes."

We have a law that's been on the books for years, that has been ratified more than once in the Assembly, that works the exact same way for groups as I'm proposing for individuals. It bans them from our political system without a trial, while still having a process that allows them to defend themselves and prevent getting banned. Nobody's had any moral quandaries with it so far. It's protected us against Empire players all that time, too.

(04-06-2018, 09:22 PM)Roavin Wrote: In your PNG draft, you suggested that PNG'd individuals shall not have forum access. Do you think this should apply to other official TSP off-site communication platforms, such as Discord, as well?

I don't think they should have access to anything TSP. If we're blacklisting players because they've fucked us over, there's no reason to keep them around anywhere that's TSP. Whether or not the Discord admins want to do that is up to them. As far as I'm aware, there's been a long tradition in TSP of the forum government not legislating off-site chats.