Quote: New Quebecshire: I really want to catch up on the OWL thing though
[19:40] New Quebecshire: Reading it now
[19:42] HumanSanity: @anjo please also catch up on the OWL thing at some point
[20:00] Luca: Hope you like word counts
[20:01] New Quebecshire: this is the essay-ist cabinet
[20:01] New Quebecshire: everything we say has to be 2,000+ words
[20:02] kpop’s loose cannon: oh jeezus
[20:02] kpop’s loose cannon: when I am the least verbose person in cabinet
[20:02] kpop’s loose cannon: something's an issue
[20:02] kpop’s loose cannon: :stuck_out_tongue:
[20:03] New Quebecshire: my post in the OWL thread's preview covers my screen
[20:03] New Quebecshire: almost twice
[20:04] Luca: Ah but what theme
[20:04] New Quebecshire: new TSP blue
[20:05] New Quebecshire: The only good ones are new TSP blue and new TSP dark
[20:05] New Quebecshire: I don't hate the others but I don't like them
[20:05] New Quebecshire: new TSP dark is ass for the online list though

[20:05] Luca: I use Island paradise because that's what it looked like when I first read TSP's forum
[20:06] New Quebecshire: Mine always looked like new TSP blue from the start and by the time I experimented with others I was attached to new TSP blue
[20:06] New Quebecshire: I don't particularly mind island paradise I just don't feel like using it
[20:06] New Quebecshire: new TSP teal is meh
[20:07] kpop’s loose cannon: "old"
[20:08] Black Widow: I used to use the based on default one until Somy created New Blue
[20:09] HumanSanity: I use the dark one
[20:09] HumanSanity: New Blue didn't sit well with me, don't remember super well why
[20:10] kpop’s loose cannon: im so used to new tsp blue that i really can't use anything else
[20:11] kpop’s loose cannon: the default theme is ok too bc thats the old one
[20:11] kpop’s loose cannon: or --tsp rather
[20:11] New Quebecshire: and posted
[20:11] New Quebecshire: this is basically me
[20:12] New Quebecshire: i joined the forum in february 2021 for LCN/TL stuff and it went to that immediately so ive always stuck with it
[20:12] New Quebecshire: i didnt recall really looking at TSP's forum before then
[20:13] kpop’s loose cannon: yeah i mean i am literally user number 85 so uh
[20:14] kpop’s loose cannon: i've been here a minute
[20:14] kpop’s loose cannon: :stuck_out_tongue:
[20:14] kpop’s loose cannon: i can do new tsp blue and default theme but thats it basically
[20:14] New Quebecshire: i dont know how to see what my specific user number is but its obviously quite recent
[20:16] kpop’s loose cannon: 2079
[20:16] kpop’s loose cannon: click on ur username
[20:16] kpop’s loose cannon: on the fourm
[20:16] Luca: I do hope that you did more than skim the thread since there was a lot of focus on very specific and technical angles of dialogue
[20:17] kpop’s loose cannon: yeah
[20:17] Luca: It would be a shame to revert to square one at this point
[20:19] New Quebecshire: I'm still going back to stuff I'm not sure on. For example, I haven't decided my opinion on the voting system we should use.
[20:25] New Quebecshire: I think I'm confidently caught up on the thread now, the arguments in it etc
[20:37] kpop’s loose cannon: i am going to write up a "very dumb person who doesn't understand OWL" suggestion based on stuff i've seen tomorrow that's basically an outline of the plan forward
[20:37] kpop’s loose cannon: because i am a very dumb person who doesn't understand OWL
[20:37] New Quebecshire: breathes in
[20:37] New Quebecshire: spreadsheets
[20:37] kpop’s loose cannon: and if I, the prime minister, don't know what the fuck is going on there half the time
[20:37] New Quebecshire: thats 90% of it at least behind the scenes
[20:37] kpop’s loose cannon: can you imagine how a new person feels
[20:37] New Quebecshire: the bot for example can be managed from a spreadsheet
[20:37] New Quebecshire: at least for closing stuff and whatnot
[20:37] kpop’s loose cannon: there is so much administrative wand waving
[20:38] kpop’s loose cannon: that i feel is largely unnecessary rn
[20:38] New Quebecshire: Yeah I mean
[20:38] New Quebecshire: You've definitely seen my little checklist song and dance every couple nights
[20:38] HumanSanity: Can we figure out what we’re trying to do first and then how we’re going to do it :stuck_out_tongue:
20:38] kpop’s loose cannon: yeah
[20:38] kpop’s loose cannon: that's basically what i'm going to write up tomorrow
[20:38] kpop’s loose cannon: because i literally do not know what the fuck is going on
[20:38] kpop’s loose cannon: and i've been reading all the posts
[20:38] HumanSanity: Because a lot of the issue right now is we have no clue what the fuck we’re trying to do but know exactly how to do the thing that we don’t know what we’re trying to do.
[20:39] kpop’s loose cannon: LMAO
[20:39] kpop’s loose cannon: that is
[20:39] kpop’s loose cannon: exactly what i'm feeling rn
[20:39] kpop’s loose cannon: all these technical bells and whistles but we don't know what the fuck we're trying to accomplish
[20:39] kpop’s loose cannon: something tells me this is how OWL got the way it is in the first place
[20:39] Luca: That's kinda what I've been saying x_x
[20:40] Luca: Okay, so no reservations here, this is my biggest problem being MoE in this region
[20:40] Luca: There's so much fucking shit
[20:40] Luca: Like actual junk that takes time and has rules that serve really no purpose
[20:40] Luca: Take the style guide. Great, it is technically useful
[20:40] HumanSanity: To clarify, that was my way of more bluntly phrasing what you’ve been saying :stuck_out_tongue:
[20:40] Luca: But it is, in effect, a series of lines that I'm not allowed to colour outside of
[20:40] kpop’s loose cannon: honestly luca and everyone here i'm giving all of you full license to say this in public at the cabinet meeting
[20:41] kpop’s loose cannon: if you haven't seen stuff publicly from us, it's because there is a literal mountain of shit that has functions but does nothign
[20:41] Luca: OWL is no different. And Anjo is looking at it from a perspective of how can we make more shit to add into the system, when in reality, we do not need a complicated technical solution
[20:41] kpop’s loose cannon: yeah
[20:41] kpop’s loose cannon: i agree with that
[20:41] Luca: In the same way that I don't think we needed a complicated technical solution to the unified apps project
[20:41] kpop’s loose cannon: right
[20:41] New Quebecshire: I agree scaling back the tech stuff is the way to go
[20:41] New Quebecshire: It's a bit overcomplicated
[20:41] kpop’s loose cannon: we have to simplify this, not make it more complicated
[20:41] Luca: And I have seen all of these things work without these systems, and when that's the case they are no worse off.
[20:42] New Quebecshire: Especially for vote closures
[20:42] kpop’s loose cannon: the bureaucracy has gotten SO out of hadn
[20:42] Luca: What HS started today in #world-assembly, by the way, is I think extremely good.
[20:42] HumanSanity: That is in fact why I did it
[20:42] kpop’s loose cannon: YEAH
[20:42] kpop’s loose cannon: I SAW THAT
[20:42] Luca: Yeah, I had a feeling
[20:42] HumanSanity: That and I needed to talk the thing through
[20:42] kpop’s loose cannon: i loved it
[20:43] Luca: We really should be talking about issues if we want to build a culture of engaging the subject matter
[20:43] kpop’s loose cannon: that's why i want WA voting and discussion on discord <_<
[20:43] kpop’s loose cannon: because there is actual substance able to be discussed here
[20:43] Luca: So, one thing from TEP's model that I never really figured out how to reconcile is that we had the WAA ministry talking about issues every time, but there was a WA channel in the main server which was intended to engage with non-staff, and it never really succeeded in it.
[20:43] kpop’s loose cannon: like we can literally do away with the entire gameside voting apparatus and rework OWL bot to set up and close votes here
[20:44] kpop’s loose cannon: anjo gets his bot, we get better discussion
[20:44] Luca: So if there's some kind of way we can improve on that to get more engagement generally, since all WAs in TSP can vote, we should use that
[20:44] Luca: Here's a wild question, and I apologise to whoever is reading through all of this for Sunshine six months from now but
[20:44] Luca: Is there a reason that we need the OWL channels?
[20:44] kpop’s loose cannon: "well, i plan to not run for reelection more than once"
[20:45] Luca: I mean this to say, is there a reason we have #owl-staff-nest and #world-assembly
[20:45] kpop’s loose cannon: hmm
[20:45] kpop’s loose cannon: good point
[20:45] HumanSanity: I mean we need them given the current system
[20:45] kpop’s loose cannon: yes we need them right now
[20:45] kpop’s loose cannon: OKAY we're losing track here
[20:45] HumanSanity: But in concept we do not
[20:45] kpop’s loose cannon: this is
[20:45] kpop’s loose cannon: getting a little too far ahead rn
[20:45] Luca: Yeah, re:voting system
[20:49] kpop’s loose cannon: yes
[20:49] kpop’s loose cannon: we're gettin gahead of ourselves again
[20:49] Luca: So discord == good for discussion
[20:49] Luca: Let's talk about the voting format
[20:49] New Quebecshire: For sure
[20:49] New Quebecshire: (re Discord)
[20:49] Luca: RMB good or no
[20:49] kpop’s loose cannon: I am going to quote this conversation in the thread tomorrow btw
[20:49] kpop’s loose cannon: like copy it as a record
[20:49] Luca: Thanks
[20:50] kpop’s loose cannon: for sunshine purposes later
[20:50] New Quebecshire: I don't think RMB is good if voting is on Discord. I'm not keen on splitting the two processes, that's my issue.
[20:50] kpop’s loose cannon: yeah
[20:50] New Quebecshire: I think that will cause some loss of engagement
[20:50] Luca: I don't know that was ever suggested, but noted.
[20:50] kpop’s loose cannon: i am pro doing away with gameside stuff entirely honestly and replacing it all with discord :stuck_out_tongue:
[20:50] kpop’s loose cannon: like dispatches and recs obviously stay but discussion and voting should be on discord
[20:51] Luca: It's pretty much, I think, have voting on discord or have voting on the RMB. I'm indifferent to where it actually happens as long as we are actively discussing topics instead of just dropping "For" "Against" into a post and calling it a day
[20:51] Luca: And we are literally dictated by that phenomenon now.
[20:51] Luca: So whatever our goal was in native engagement, it's not happening
[20:54] New Quebecshire: Yep, even when people write paragraph(s) justifications, they don't get responses often
[20:55] kpop’s loose cannon: Case in point: convention against heisting lol
[20:56] HumanSanity: In an ideal world I would like on-site participation in the voting process
[20:56] HumanSanity: Which, in fairness, does still exist as the Delegate switches their vote if the regional popular vote goes against OWL recommendations
[20:57] kpop’s loose cannon: Yep
[20:57] kpop’s loose cannon: I’m ok with that honestly. My primary objective is substantive discussion and it’s not happening on the RMB
[20:59] Luca: Our recommendations lose very little by being quoted off the discord instead of the RMB, if it comes to that (and if we must use quotes). We could also just have the analysis be an amalgamation of the collective discussion and conclusion instead of individual takes which might not be as developed.
[21:00] Luca: It's also possible to just have a discussion and post that into the vote either way.
[21:02] kpop’s loose cannon: Yeah we can literally just quote chunks of discord chat that are relevant
[21:02] kpop’s loose cannon: And nothing of value is lost
[21:05] Luca: @New Quebecshire My most pressing concern is how we can better get a conversation started. If a vote is entirely on Discord, the overhead to start debating/voting on an issue is minimal. At the moment, you have a long checklist of things to do in a particular order. As we've seen with certain controversial resolutions this year, when no one is around to do that long checklist, OWL grinds to a halt entirely.
[21:06] Luca: Unless, process is simplified and/or the available pool of people allowed to start a vote dramatically expands, this is a high-risk situation for OWL doing literally anything.
[21:06] New Quebecshire: Yep - I don't think anyone would contest (and you said this directly in the thread) that I managed a lot of the work for OWL over the last couple of weeks
[21:07] New Quebecshire: Anjo did last night's for example because I went to bed early (or tried to) ahead of something IRL today but like even the recs, I've written a lot of the recent ones
[21:07] New Quebecshire: And those do add up time wise, I set aside time to be able to do it
[21:07] New Quebecshire: So narrowing that and simplifying it as you said is key to sustainability, but Discord votes could probably expand the vote opener pool perhaps?
[21:08] HumanSanity: It realistically would need some kind of structure to be managable, but opening a Discord vote could literally be a question of going
"Yo, what are thoughts on X links to forum and link to proposal"
[21:09] Luca: Literally what I used to do was
[21:09] Luca: SC: Commend Imperium Anglorum https://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_vie...1627553267
[up react] [neutral react] [down react]
[21:09] Luca: In a locked voting channel
[21:09] Luca: And votes were reacts
[21:10] Luca: Time necessary to start a conversation is like ten seconds
[21:10] Luca: In theory, anyone in OWL senior staff should be able to do that.
[21:10] New Quebecshire: Yea
[21:10] Luca: In theory, we should have more than one active OWL senior staff
[21:10] HumanSanity: We would have to audit voters to ensure they are WA in TSP or SPSF somehow, but yes.
[21:10] Luca: Yeah, we don't really have a system in this server to know of WA members
[21:11] New Quebecshire: "make roavin make an NSV system for coco so we can audit OWL"
[21:11] New Quebecshire: Yeah that'll be the biggest challenge
[21:12] Luca: Can we dramatically simplify the process in the RMB system to allow for more expedience or ease of access?
[21:12] Luca: We can still ping publicly to solicit opinions and help build the OWL analysis either way
[21:21] HumanSanity: Moving forward, regardless of what is decided (although I really like the idea of mostly Discord with - if at all possible - some kind of on-site tie in somehow), I think we should establish a time table moving forward
[21:22] HumanSanity: We're at a month since the Commend Imki vote happened, which was the sort of proximate cause of this discussion
[21:22] kpop’s loose cannon: Yep agree
[21:22] HumanSanity: The Assembly is aware that a discussion is occurring because of that incident
[21:23] kpop’s loose cannon: I’m going to use the cabinet meeting to brief on the progress of that discussion, as I’ve alluded to in #swan-lake
[21:23] kpop’s loose cannon: So I’d like us to have a timetable by then
[21:23] HumanSanity: If I may suggest, can we set a timeline (I think 10 days to 2 weeks) to have a proposal ready to present to the Assembly for public input/comment and then get whatever we have decided implemented by the end of the term?
[21:23] kpop’s loose cannon: Yes
[21:23] kpop’s loose cannon: That is a good plan
[21:24] kpop’s loose cannon: Today’s the 10th. If we say 2 weeks that’s the 24th. Just to put this into actual terms
[21:25] Luca: That's fine with me.
[21:25] HumanSanity: Otherwise I see this continuing in hamster wheels and us leaving this for the next Cabinet, as did the Cabinet before us