Additional Logs from Discord

Note that
Black Widow = Jay (MoFA)
Prime Minion = W&S (PM)
the blank name/space = Luca (MoE)
Minister Big Q = Quebecshire (MoC)
After WA locking himself Moon = Moonfungus (MoM)

#cabinet-office 6/26-27/2021 Wrote:Black Widow — 06/26/2021
What's going on with the OWL these days?
឵ — 06/27/2021
As far as I can tell, Anjo has been /away, so we haven't had a new discussion/vote up in the last nine days. I believe Beeps went opposite the recommendation on canals, and we've missed a vote/recommend for Ban Conversion Therapy entirely. Nothing yet for Guest Workers.
Idk who else is in OWL senior staff, but no one else seems to have responded to the ping either.
Black Widow — 06/27/2021
This is why I thought making the OWL a ministry was the better route.
HumanSanity — 06/27/2021
WS, did you talk about activity levels/plans for boosting them with anjo when you did the start of term appointment?
I think it's technically legal for Beepee to vote opposite of a rec if the regional popular vote goes the other way, which I believe it did. of course, it may have turned out differently if the rec had come out on time and then Del had voted early, etc. etc. blah
Prime Minion — 06/27/2021
not particularly, no
឵ — 06/27/2021
I have no opinion on it because I'm not super invested in these outcomes anymore, just noted it and thought it was quirky.
HumanSanity — 06/27/2021
Valid af
HumanSanity — 06/27/2021
Hya, Luca, and Quebec are the most active OWL people over the past few months iirc. Ero/Oshiega is new but showed a lot of interest in WA/OWL stuff, great attitude.
Also moon
Prime Minion — 06/27/2021
yeah I noticed oshiega posting there
Before I go to bed: I know jack about OWL so my mindset going in was “status quo and I’ll figure it out”
HumanSanity — 06/27/2021
Yeah that’s valid. It feels very mechanical right now, which might be part of its difficulty with staff. Needs a little love and attention
឵ — 06/27/2021
General outline:

Updates on proposals are supposed to go in #owl-proposal-updates to make them easier to track. When a proposal gets near vote, it should be put in the voting region https://www.nationstates.net/region=the_...ing_center where Anjo's bot picks it up, and approved OWL staff classify the posts. When a decent amount of input has been received from the voting centre RMB, a dispatch is expected that (ideally) captures for/against opinions from TSP voters, as well as prominent places around NS. There's an auto-formatter to assist in this regard, but it's still a bit cumbersome and difficult to locate internal or external opinions at times.
Imo the primary weakness of the program is that, because all of the OWL votes take place on a distant RMB, there isn't often a debate or discussion about the topics, it's mostly one and done posts. And when the call goes out to staffers to parse that, I think they're not as well equipped to create an analysis as a result. That and finding credible opinions from non-problematic sources without context can be a challenge.
But at the moment, the most pressing bottleneck is getting senior staff to open voting on new proposals.
Prime Minion — 06/27/2021
k, sounds good.
Once again seems like some of the activity issues we were talking about in DMs with the home ministries

 

#cabinet-office; 7/11/2021 Wrote:HumanSanity — 07/11/2021
Just something to consider: is there any reason the current OWL reform thread can't be moved publicly to hold that discussion with a wider swath of the region?
After WA locking himself Moon — 07/11/2021
I don't see any reason why, given that the PM authorizes it.

I think it’s the best thing to do, it’s an issue the entire region needs to know and acknowledge and we need their feedback to ensure that this can be avoided in the future.
Nakari — 07/11/2021
+ especially current owl people
HumanSanity — 07/11/2021
I would also be open to declassifying this short conversation so it's clear when and how the Cabinet started discussing OWL votes.
After WA locking himself Moon — 07/11/2021
Don’t see anything that needs censoring there
HumanSanity — 07/11/2021
Yeah, basically I think Somy's characterization that Cabinet has not communicated adequately with OWL about issues is at least partially true and is a process issue we should own and that it will be healthier for the medium term development of OWL if we own it because it will allow OWL to move forward and reform while retaining its current staff in a collegial relationship with the Cabinet as an institution
After WA locking himself Moon — 07/11/2021
Just wanna say that if we want to tear down the OWL's staff hierarchy and go for a much more equally spread structure, I'm game for that.
HumanSanity — 07/11/2021
I said that :p
[Several messages redacted due to security/foreign affairs]
឵ — 07/11/2021
Yes. Recommendation: [redacted], then move to public.
឵ — 07/11/2021
:lucabeam:
HumanSanity — 07/11/2021
^ that discussion has already been started in #legislators-lounge and I think, while tense at one point, has been productive in some ways. So, I think releasing all background Cabinet discussions would be helpful
Prime Minion — 07/11/2021
I can do that but I’ll have to censor [redacted]
I’ll make a post in leg lounge saying to expect more declassification but they will be partially redacted due to ongoing sensitive matters
[Several more messages redacted]
anjo — 07/12/2021
As was suggested here, I could promote Quebec and Osheiga if that's okay - moonfungus, theoretically you'd also absolutely deserve a promotion but you said that it'd be unwise to hand out additional duties to sitting ministers :stuck_out_tongue:
HumanSanity — 07/12/2021
Do we still want to do this? or are we prioritizing the internal Cabinet + anjo discussion?
឵ — 07/12/2021
I'm fine with it, obviously, but I've also dumped ten times the wordcount into leg lounge, so there's no mystery about what my position is on the topic
HumanSanity — 07/12/2021
also this thread needs update https://tspforums.xyz/thread-7536.html
Prime Minion — 07/12/2021
i could declassify ig

 

#cabinet-office, 7/14/2021 Wrote:HumanSanity — 07/14/2021
@anjo whenever you get off LOA can you make sure to check this thread and give input: https://tspforums.xyz/thread-9542-post-218808.html
anjo — 07/14/2021
Sorry, I lack the forum perms to see that thread
HumanSanity — 07/14/2021
anThink:
឵ — 07/14/2021
I don't think it got declassified
HumanSanity — 07/14/2021
Yes but it's in the area of the Cabinet office the OWL Director is supposed to be able to see (I think right @Prime Minion )?
It's not in Sit Room
If I understand right then we should get a forum admin to sort it out since that thread is about OWL direction/etc.
Prime Minion — 07/14/2021
??? Let me check
Yeah cabinet office should be visible to anjo? If it’s not in the situation room I don’t know why you wouldn’t be able to see it unless forum maskings work differently than I thought
Yeah that’s in regular cabinet office. I’ll go submit an admin request when I get home.

 

#cabinet-office, 7/16/2021 Wrote:anjo — 07/16/2021
I've posted my thoughts on the OWL reform in the thread

 

#cabinet-office, 7/21-22/2021 Wrote:឵ — 07/21/2021
I made note of it in the OWL channel, but for cross-posting, we are behind again in getting a discussion/vote prepared for the WA. The GA resolution at vote has reached this stage without any consideration from OWL.
឵ — 07/21/2021
Responded in the OWL thread.
Prime Minion — 07/21/2021
…!
anjo — 07/22/2021
I've contacted Quebec and Osheiga about whether they'd be interested in getting a promotion; Quebec said yes, I'm just waiting for Osheiga to respond, then I'll do the senior staff switches so we at least have that off the table
Prime Minion — 07/22/2021
thank u anjo that would be a great help

 

#cabinet-office, 8/5/2021 Wrote:HumanSanity — 08/05/2021
@anjo whenever possible, I think it’s important we continue the OWL discussion
Luca left some thoughts about 2 weeks ago
Prime Minion — 08/05/2021
yes -
been meaning to restart that

#cabinet-office, 8/6/2021 Wrote:[Some content which is already quoted by Luca above]
HumanSanity — 08/10/2021
@anjo want to make sure you see and are aware of this timeframe we'd like to move on for OWL reforms. Try to get a proposal out for public comment by 8/24.
After WA locking himself Moon — 08/10/2021
Sounds awesome to me
Prime Minion — 08/10/2021
Ok this WA discussion that’s been going on for a bit is exactly the kind of stuff we need to evidence why discord is superior
឵ — 08/10/2021
lmao
It does help to talk about things in real time
Minister Big Q — 08/10/2021
For sure, it's the easiest medium to engage in discussion/debate by far, no contest, and both of today's discussions prove it
឵ — 08/10/2021
God I'm literally incapable of spelling "color"
Minister Big Q — 08/10/2021
colour

#cabinet-office, 8/11/2021 Wrote:anjo — 08/11/2021
I've been looking at it from a perspective of "the issue is we don't have active senior staff, everybody agreed this is the problem, everybody steered towards eliminating the senior staff distinction entirely, so what are our options for doing stuff without handing out the nation password to every random person that got into OWL". It's not that I want to add more "shit" into the system - believe me, I've been running the majority of OWL more or less alone from about last year's September until about April and I know how exhausting it can be - I've just been trying to explain what we could technically do, given the possible elimination of senior staff, which was like one of the primary topics brought up early in the discussion.
Sorry if I've been completely missing your point the entire time, but this was the issue that was brought up to me first and foremost so I naturally approached the discussion from this angle.
[Discussion of other topics omitted]
HumanSanity — 08/11/2021
In a more productive sense, re: what Somy is saying about OWL in #swan-lake - I think it would be sensible to release the private Cabinet discussion thread (sans secure information about Senior Staffers) to the Assembly when we release any recommendation(s)
឵ — 08/11/2021
I support this.
HumanSanity — 08/11/2021
It is worth noting that previously we had discussed doing the OWL restructuring discussion more publicly/transparently (as Somy suggested) and there seemed to be consensus around that. (See this message and the several after it)
Our conclusion was basically "deal with [redacted], then go public"
Due to a combination of factors, we never seem to have gotten to the "then go public" component
After WA locking himself Moon — 08/11/2021
Seems like we deviated from course.
Yeah
HumanSanity — 08/11/2021
OK, So - re: the discussion in #swan-lake

I'd like to move up the timeline on starting a public discussion on this. I think Somy's concern about the Cabinet having taken over the discussion is a valid one and that ultimately we're just limiting the number of people who can participate, not to a very productive end. Especially since we seemingly agreed to release the discussions a month ago, but we lost it - I think due to a combination of [redacted] dragging out + PM/OWL Director going on LOA around the same time.
Prime Minion — 08/11/2021
yeah
that's for sure part of it
After WA locking himself Moon — 08/11/2021
Mhm
Prime Minion — 08/11/2021
I might just dump the logs after i'm done with this oversight stuff
bah but i need to do sunshine toooo
asdf
឵ — 08/11/2021
Admitted to the World Assembly on Killer Song
HumanSanity — 08/11/2021
To clarify, I do not think the logs should just be dumped. I think that the logs should be dumped with a thread in the public halls linking to the logs and initiating a discussion
Prime Minion — 08/11/2021
気づいてた いつかあたしもきみのため
誰かを殺める日が来るってこと
ok - in all seriousness. I agree with HS
I'm not gonna just dump it and walk away, I'm gonna dump it with a discussion
HumanSanity — 08/11/2021
I do think it would be wise, when we release the public logs, to still have some kind of "schedule"
Prime Minion — 08/11/2021
yes
that definitely needs to be the case
HumanSanity — 08/11/2021
The idea of needing a schedule to keep things on track is still a good idea
឵ — 08/11/2021
These are good ideas, yes.

#swan-lake, 8/11/2021 Wrote:Prime Minion — 08/11/2021
OWL reform has come to the front burner because of recent events and I would be utterly lost without Luca on that
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
I'll echo what Amerion said -- I'm highly interested to see what the Cabinet will reveal in upcoming weeks. You're painting a picture of a terrible morass of debris that is bearing down on us so dangerously that it must be our sole and most important priority to combat its evil descent. That's certainly a fearsome picture, and I'm anxious for it and your efforts to become public. Overall I think you guys have been a really amazing cabinet -- I question on what basis you decided that there was a "notion that this cabinet has been unproductive" or that you needed to defend Luca from accusations of not contributing to the cabinet's great work. The Cabinet has been more productive than most in recent memory, and Luca has evidently played a major part in the internal restructuring work that the cabinet's embarked on. I applaud both. I think I'd just want to suggest, request, or however you want to phrase it, that you continually ensure that your great work is always done with a mind to how you can involve the rest of the region. I'm looking forward to an Assembly discussion on OWL reform, for instance; perhaps citizens and/or regular ministry members can also work on updating some of those outdated dispatches you speak of.
Prime Minion — 08/11/2021
yeah... most of this phrasing in these private spaces is just me grumbling about the amount of it. If it's dangerous, it's one of those slow-moving crises that no one really seemed to grasp until we peeled the curtain back a bit
After WA locking himself Moon — 08/11/2021
I'm looking forward to an Assembly discussion on OWL reform, for instance
I can confirm that this is happening soon. Just need to organize stuffs to present to the Assembly.
Prime Minion — 08/11/2021
OWL reform is currently where a lot of the debris was found.
After WA locking himself Moon — 08/11/2021
Our OWL discussions is kind of messy right now :stuck_out_tongue:
Prime Minion — 08/11/2021
It's the reason why, for instance, that the Commend Imki debate went as sideways as it did
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
I'm curious at the debris you found there because that's the one place where I have pretty complete knowledge of the assets, resources, and structure :stuck_out_tongue:
and whatever else you can say I'm not sure I'd call OWL a particularly messy enterprise
just an inefficient one
Prime Minion — 08/11/2021
That equates to "messy" for me
if something's not efficient, that means there's stuff ther ethat doesn't need to be. That's what I consider a mess.
OWL currently does next to nil to achieve our WA objectives
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
Well that's an overly pessimistic take if I ever heard one :stuck_out_tongue:
Prime Minion — 08/11/2021
I'll say more about this at the cabient meeting. But I'm exceedingly pessimistic about our WA apparatus, yes.
After WA locking himself Moon — 08/11/2021
I will raise the LC issue sometime soon. I think.
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
As long as you allow for the possibility that others may not feel such a new operation is so irreparably broken.
Prime Minion — 08/11/2021
What I will say now is: we are planning to have a full and concrete proposal for OWL refom to release to the public by the 24th, and the goal will be to implement it by end of term
We will actively seek public feedback, especially from OWL staffers. We've got a few of those in cabinet right now too.
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
Releasing to the public means simply for the public to see it before it goes into action, or actually for the public to discuss and, if necessary, amend it? :stuck_out_tongue:
Prime Minion — 08/11/2021
The latter.
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
cool
Prime Minion — 08/11/2021
We plan to actively seek public feedback
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
I suppose OWL is codified so you do have to pass it through the assembly
Prime Minion — 08/11/2021
some parts of it may, yes.
HumanSanity — 08/11/2021
OWL is codified also so that OWL is independent from the Cabinet for the duration of the Cabinet term
Prime Minion — 08/11/2021
we're working very closely with anjo on this
HumanSanity — 08/11/2021
So, while the Cabinet has been particularly active in trying to fix the perceived issues we have with OWL, we actually cannot force OWL to do anything
Prime Minion — 08/11/2021
^
After WA locking himself Moon — 08/11/2021
We can just write a bunch of notes and wave those around its eyes.
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
I would sort of question why this is a Cabinet matter as opposed to an Assembly matter if you guys don't actually have any special power over the institution :stuck_out_tongue:
HumanSanity — 08/11/2021
However, given there are issues with OWL (I don't think that it can be argued there are not), given that those issues have existed for some time, and given that the current OWL leadership has not much acted to address them, the Cabinet is attempting to create some actual focus on those discussions and move them somewhat productive
HumanSanity — 08/11/2021
Part of this is simply the way the discussion has evolved. OWL's issues were cast into the spotlight by Commend Imki, so the Cabinet started private discussions as a result. I think we'd like to have something workable - in conjunction with anjo - to present to the public for feedback and then move into implementation stages
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
For example, I don't think the Cabinet, if its members thought High Court reform were necessary, would try to formulate a Cabinet Proposal for Amending the High Court. One or more of its members, as Legislators, would simply introduce discussion to the Assembly.
Prime Minion — 08/11/2021
3. Voting

(1) The Office of World Assembly Legislation shall determine the medium for voting on proposed World Assembly resolutions.


So really what we're doing is working with OWL to address how they can better meet our objectives. THis is the only thing codified for how OWL operates other than "WA/SPSF members can't be restricted from voting"
HumanSanity — 08/11/2021
I don't think any proposal under discussion would require amending the World Assembly Act
Prime Minion — 08/11/2021
yeah
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
Was Commend Imki really such a failure of OWL? >_>
Prime Minion — 08/11/2021
partially, yes
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
it seemed more like a Cabinet communication issue
Prime Minion — 08/11/2021
it demonstrated some serious flaws
there wasn't even a vote/discussion on it opened
iirc
HumanSanity — 08/11/2021
It was not solely a failure of OWL. It highlighted an issue with OWL's staffing which the Cabinet began discussing
Prime Minion — 08/11/2021
^
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
So you only noticed that OWL was missing votes occasionally when it wasn't there to back you up
I mean, at least we identified a problem :stuck_out_tongue:
HumanSanity — 08/11/2021
I mean, people were aware of it before then. Commend Imki just gave it a "crisis level" status as opposed to a "thing going on" status
Perhaps rationally that's not a good explanation for why it led to sudden action, but just in terms of where people's heads are in thinking about things, I think it's fairly explanatory
After WA locking himself Moon — 08/11/2021
I can affirm that the Cabinet was discussing the issue even before Commend Imki went to vote.
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
Alright, yeah. I admit I never have seen OWL missing a vote as particularly a crisis or even anything of serious note.
After WA locking himself Moon — 08/11/2021
It really wasn't. From a personal point of view, it was Glen assuming something that the Cabinet did not do and then acting on that assumption. That was the entire crisis, if I'm to be blunt.
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
Since it was, at least when we started building the service, sort of a good-but-not-necessary addition on top of the delegate's normal voting decisionmaking process
since then, I suppose it's become more mandatory
Anyway, while I do understand why it's ended up that OWL reform discussion has taken place within the Cabinet as opposed to the Assembly, I still think that's a somewhat less-than-ideal way to go about it.
The Cabinet's limited, selective, private nature doesn't serve any positive purpose in this case, because the Cabinet isn't actually responsible for OWL, and so can only make the discussion less participatory and more opaque.
HumanSanity — 08/11/2021
I think that's entirely fair criticism and I wish the discussion had moved to a public/Assembly platform sooner, and there are plans to move it there
After WA locking himself Moon — 08/11/2021
Fair enough, that makes sense. I wanted this to go public sooner, but we had to take a break due to some stuffs, both RL and IC.
឵ — 08/11/2021
To be fair you and I have discussed OWL at length in #legislators-lounge
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
I know all of you in Cabinet care a lot about transparency, so I just want to warn a bit that sometimes I feel like in your angst about getting everything done and cleaning everything up (all good things to care about!) you may not remember that there's a bigger world of TSPers than the Cabinet who are often very interested and willing to help, especially when their input is just as useful as a Cabinet member's :stuck_out_tongue:
឵ — 08/11/2021
Probably the second most powerful region in terms of delegate stomp should be certain of what it is doing and acting with a solid grasp of a given WA situation. So it really is a serious issue if a resolution (especially a highly controversial one) does not get discussed and debated by TSP so that we can cast a vote in the region's interest.
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
If that was a substantial part of the sum total of the OWL discussion that's been had anywhere in or out of Cabinet, then I guess I'm overestimating how much you guys have been doing with this in private. My impression was that that discussion was a quite small bit of comment, speaking in pretty uncertain terms, about something that the Cabinet has gone on to do a lot of un-discussed work on
឵ — 08/11/2021
I did not express or imply any relation of that conversation to the sum total of the conversation on the topic in Cabinet Somyrion.
glen, queen mother — 08/11/2021
Not to go off on a tangent, but my issue (I wouldn’t call it a crisis) was with the PM and other ministers supporting the commendation. The lack of communication from the Cabinet, combined with OWL not holding any vote (but doing so for other proposals at the time), created a perception of impropriety because the PM was explicitly supportive of the commendation. That perception was cleared up, but wasn’t the major issue :p For changing how OWL works, I do think the Cabinet needs to remember that OWL is it’s own executive office, answerable to the PM. Not MoE or any other ministry.
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
ooh yay I get called by my full username for once in a blue moon
឵ — 08/11/2021
Misrepresentation will make that happen.
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
I hope I don't have to dive into the implicatures of the phrase "to be fair"...
឵ — 08/11/2021
No one has taken an issue with that phrase with me before, I apologise if I offended with the use of it.
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
Don't worry, you're not offending anyone by using "to be fair", though you may be confusing them if you don't mean "well, actually" when you say it :stuck_out_tongue:
឵ — 08/11/2021
Like I've said a great deal, I think that the reason OWL has missed these votes is because there is such a great overhead in terms of labour to get a vote/discussion started that it tends to be a draining process. The majority of the work that OWL does is largely administrative, it doesn't foster a discussion environment because the majority of the content in the OWL channels is soliciting aid for paper pushing. But this discussion environment is what interests people in WA issues, what gets them down the road to become authors and leaders of these departments.

We are lacking that, and in the process, there are relatively few people willing or able to continue pushing the papers as expected.
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
I'm glad you have opinions on ways OWL needs to be worked on. I do too.
I share your opinions, in large part.
Now let's discuss them! (In a public venue, preferably the Assembly, as soon as possible.)
After WA locking himself Moon — 08/11/2021
!roavin
Coconut [!]
BOT
— 08/11/2021
SOON™
឵ — 08/11/2021
I believe it would be largely repeating what we talked about there last (which lasted several hours) but I am not against doing so again.
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
At this point I think Roavin's SOON™ is just a synonym for never
glen, queen mother — 08/11/2021
(That’s the joke)
Where is the Director of OWL in these discussions, btw? Are they leading them, or is this being led by the MoE?
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
W&S said Anjo has been involved iirc
឵ — 08/11/2021
The director is relatively difficult to reach for feedback, but yes Anjo is in the thread and has expressed his thoughts on the subject.
Direction and willingness for change has been a challenge.
After WA locking himself Moon — 08/11/2021
Anjo's involved in the discussion and has already shared their thoughts on the subject.
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
If any more discussion being had on the topic beyond what you and I discussed that one time would be repetitive, then what in the world have you guys been doing in Cabinet this whole time? How many times have you been repeating that one discussion?? :stuck_out_tongue:
឵ — 08/11/2021
Like I said, I am on board with having a conversation in the hopes it leads to a productive outcome.
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
While you are willing to participate in it, you seem to feel that such conversation is not necessary.
឵ — 08/11/2021
This was also not expressed.
NSGP largely has more good-faith takes on the things that I say.
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
I'm not sure what else to make of this message.
឵ — 08/11/2021
What your statement implied to me was that you wanted to have a conversation about OWL in the context of really doing so for the first time. I mean to say that we have already had a long conversation on the subject. I would say that talking about the issue for hours does indeed constitute a long conversation.
I don't think anything came out of that at the time, which is why I've continued to talk about the issue in Cabinet.
But I'm still, as I've said, interested in having a conversation in getting reform accomplished at whatever venue accomplishes that goal.
I have foremost maintained that the competency of TSP should be a priority and how we express our power as a large voting bloc and influential presence is an asset to be utilised to the fullest. So reform is necessary to do this.
HumanSanity — 08/11/2021
I think Somy is concerned the Cabinet believes [X] is the correct outcome and that while we're willing to talk about [X] we're not willing to modify [X] based on that discussion because Somy is concerned we're very entrenched into our beliefs about the subject, which I think is a valid concern, especially given his perception that the issue has been handled privately by the Cabinet when it could have been handled publicly
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
I was not requesting that we discuss it publicly for the first time (did I ever say first time? I don't think so...). I was requesting that that venue you speak of be a more open one, where everyone who has an equal level of OWL oversight (i.e., all legislators) have the ability to participate -- which fortunately I've gotten the sense that a bunch of your fellow ministers, if not you yourself, are anxious to see happen
Those messages from ministers about preparing for and wanting to move forward ASAP on moving discussion to the Assembly have definitely made me less worried, so I'm grateful for that
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
This is a reasonable summary that is expressed much better than I could have done
឵ — 08/11/2021
I believe the entire cabinet is interested in seeing it happen. There were private issues that could not allow the discussion to be made public immediately in the past, but those have been addressed. So the request has already been put in to make the conversation public.
឵ — 08/11/2021
Thanks for this, HS.
HumanSanity — 08/11/2021
Ultimately, I don't know how the Cabinet can assuage that plenty valid concern besides trying to show up in good faith
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
well, I do think it's reasonably straightforward -- just introduce a discussion to the Assembly that's as open/flexible as possible, and at as soon a date as possible so as not to cause worry that the Cabinet is determining anything more on the topic than what's necessary for privacy/security reasons
which is probably just reduceable to good faith
glen, queen mother — 08/11/2021
This may be harsh, but… why does OWL still have a director who’s hard to reach? Wasn’t this the whole problem in the first place?
After WA locking himself Moon — 08/11/2021
And like we've said before, we're working on that. We expect to make our discussion, both in the forum and in Discord, public for the Assembly to see.
HumanSanity — 08/11/2021
Anjo has claimed to be on LOA but to my knowledge hasn’t provided dates for that LOA
They have responded in the thread a few times
glen, queen mother — 08/11/2021
Hm. Seems like it’s been going on for a while, and OWL staff are running the show without a director. Just something to think about
Anyways, I have some ideas on how OWL can increase engagement, but I will wait until the Cabinet releases whatever you’re working on :slight_smile:
After WA locking himself Moon — 08/11/2021
Anjo has been generally easy to reach until very recently, just wanted to point this out.
glen, queen mother — 08/11/2021
Just going off observations of what I can see in the OWL channels. It’s up to y’all if you think they’re still fit to be director. I don’t think most of the Assembly is paying any attention to OWL
HumanSanity — 08/11/2021
I have considered this but not pursued it because I don't believe the Cabinet or any of its individual members have that authority legally
(4) The Office of World Assembly Legislation will be a permanent executive office, which will be led by a Director, responsible for coordinating the Coalition's activities in the World Assembly, providing assistance in drafting resolutions, and issuing voting recommendations on World Assembly proposals. At the start of each Cabinet term, the Director will be appointed by the Prime Minister for a term coinciding with the Cabinet's. In any vacancy, a new Director will be appointed by the Prime Minister to serve the remainder of the term.
glen, queen mother — 08/11/2021
To fire the director? Nope, would definitely have to be a recall through the assembly. What I meant was I don’t think the Assembly is paying much attention, so a legislator isn’t likely to pursue a recall themselves. So its up to the Cabinet
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
the Cabinet members are all legislators!
I think Cabinet sometimes forgets this
឵ — 08/11/2021
We do not :smile:
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
Cabinet members can do anything other legislators can, which, in our very legislatively-focused region, is actually most things
឵ — 08/11/2021
I would like to make the conversation thus far public before pursuing that. I agree with you (at Glen) that the director should be the primary care provider of the office. I think from a logistical standpoint, I do note that the director's infrastructure accounts for a large body of the department's setup and process.
So there's lots of things to consider at once. Not the least of which is where to begin with reform and where it should end up
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
Lots of things to consider... so let's get the Assembly discussion ball rolling
឵ — 08/11/2021
Yes, Somyrion.
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
Great, I'm not criticising, just emphasizing :stuck_out_tongue:
the history up until this point of this cabinet has led me to believe that emphasizing may be necessary
but it's good to know that you're all on board
Prime Minion — 08/11/2021
Seconding Luca’s point that there was a security issue which had to be handled privately before we went public but it’s been handled and the ball is rolling
glen, queen mother — 08/11/2021
That’s something I was going to discuss once the cabinet releases whatever you’re working on… the infrastructure could be better, and could be hosted through TSP’s servers. We have a problem with relying on code built by ministers, that isn’t hosted by TSP and so can’t be supporting/modified/upgraded by us TSP code monkeys
After WA locking himself Moon — 08/11/2021
Yeah, we might or might not get too excited with things XD
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
I would just hate for the takeaway from this discussion to be "well, we have even more to consider now, like about recalling the secretary, so let's have another cabinet discussion before going public"
Prime Minion — 08/11/2021
I plan to authorize public release of the Cabinet discussions when we go public with our proposal/s.
[Other discussion not included]
Panda’s Toothpick — 08/11/2021
Re: OWL
(1) I’ve made this point elsewhere but while the program is rightfully targeted at a domestic audience, our influence and the Delegate’s voting power places us in a very strong position of encouraging international dialogue in that region. I’m surprised more proposal authors don’t make a compelling case when the margins are so tight and their reasoning could get them 669 votes.
(2) We could do a better job of promoting the service and I’ll make a note of that for future telegrams. Maybe an OWL Day would help raise awareness
It does a great job with the RMB notifications but I think we need to go harder
Somyrion (Aumeltopia) — 08/11/2021
Advertisement, both internally and externally, is a huge thing, yeah.
Which OWL so far really hasn't dedicated anything at all (beyond the notifications service) to.
Other than the facts of the basic setup that involve posting on the main RMB
OWL is still a young service, so it's great to think about ways to grow it

#cabinet-office, 8/21/2021 Wrote:After WA locking himself Moon — Today at 2:02 AM
@Prime Minionster reminder to make the OWL thingy public to the Assembly so that we can get the ball rolling, since we're approaching the stated release date of it.
Prime Minion — Today at 8:41 AM
yeah
sorry.
HumanSanity — Today at 8:43 AM
Would it help to delegate anything in your backlog to anyone else in the Cabinet?
After WA locking himself Moon — Today at 9:25 AM
^
If it's burdening you much, we can take some of your work.
Prime Minion — Today at 10:19 AM
nothing’s burdening me, I just got slammed by RL
And no one but me has the power to release stuff. What I would request is someone write some kind of OP/commentary about OWL reform that I can post with the thread. That’s what I don’t have the ability to do rn.