Look, personally, I don't want to get rid of any of the current functions of the Local Council. That doesn't mean I'm attached to specifically having a Local Council that serves as a "local government" that advertises the "offsite government" — in fact, I find that establishing a distinction between on-site and off-site is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Consequently, I'm not really sure how to interpret "I don’t want to fully get rid of the Local Council." I know you don't, but from my perspective, it doesn't really answer why. Why is having a separate, local government — and any kind of "on-site" vs. "off-site" dichotomy — the most effective way to actually engage with the RMB, in your view?

Really good question. As Minister of Culture, my field doesn't really do this, though I do tend to be active in many places in TSP. RMB, forums, discord, TSPedia. I see individually each community that is there. We're different, but at the end of the day, we're all one TSP. I would encourage Griffindor to have more engagement initiatives, getting people from NS over to participate on the forums and have a say in our government. But since we don't do much of that- or we do and it isn't effective - the Local Council is a vital body that helps administrate gameside affairs. People on gameside love the Local Council, they have a special connection to it. And that's what we want. Our jobs as Ministers are to really connect with those who elected us, and those we serve. The Local Council does exactly that. 

I made my little "bill" thing for a compromise, but in reality, as you said, I want to keep every single thing about the Local Council. Well, maybe reform a little bit if required (as I would be open to having LCs be ambassadors from gameside to forumside).

maluhia
minister of culture
ambassador to lazarus
roleplayer
 

 

Reply

To be honest, it’s sounding like the primary motivation here that Lile wants to keep the title of Local Councillor, regardless of whatever change in purpose we make. I’m having a hard time understanding alternative motivations, when the latest proposal demolishes any unique purpose the LC would have that isn’t already under the purview of an existing ministry (even if it’s not currently being done by engagement/culture well enough).

Well, yes, I like the title, but I like how the people on gameside, including myself, can really connect with the LCs. People love the LC. That's my primary motivation.

maluhia
minister of culture
ambassador to lazarus
roleplayer
 

 

Reply

To be honest, it’s sounding like the primary motivation here that Lile wants to keep the title of Local Councillor, regardless of whatever change in purpose we make. I’m having a hard time understanding alternative motivations, when the latest proposal demolishes any unique purpose the LC would have that isn’t already under the purview of an existing ministry (even if it’s not currently being done by engagement/culture well enough).

Well, yes, I like the title, but I like how the people on gameside, including myself, can really connect with the LCs. People love the LC. That's my primary motivation.

Why can't people "really connect with" the RMB moderators or with an appointed team of RMB liaisons or advocates? This is why I asked on Discord: will more people support this if the bill to establish an "RMB liaison" team is folded into it, as opposed to operating as a separate/stand alone proposal?

Minister of Foreign Affairs
General of the South Pacific Special Forces
Ambassador to Balder
Former Prime Minister and Minister of Defense

Reply

To be honest, it’s sounding like the primary motivation here that Lile wants to keep the title of Local Councillor, regardless of whatever change in purpose we make. I’m having a hard time understanding alternative motivations, when the latest proposal demolishes any unique purpose the LC would have that isn’t already under the purview of an existing ministry (even if it’s not currently being done by engagement/culture well enough).

Well, yes, I like the title, but I like how the people on gameside, including myself, can really connect with the LCs. People love the LC. That's my primary motivation.

Why can't people "really connect with" the RMB moderators or with an appointed team of RMB liaisons or advocates? This is why I asked on Discord: will more people support this if the bill to establish an "RMB liaison" team is folded into it, as opposed to operating as a separate/stand alone proposal?

People on the RMB (and I slightly agree with the following) like the Local Council and are happy with it. The LC serves their needs, and that's what they want. So, since they're happy with the Local Council, they're gonna be like: why get rid of it?

maluhia
minister of culture
ambassador to lazarus
roleplayer
 

 

Reply

To be honest, it’s sounding like the primary motivation here that Lile wants to keep the title of Local Councillor, regardless of whatever change in purpose we make. I’m having a hard time understanding alternative motivations, when the latest proposal demolishes any unique purpose the LC would have that isn’t already under the purview of an existing ministry (even if it’s not currently being done by engagement/culture well enough).

Well, yes, I like the title, but I like how the people on gameside, including myself, can really connect with the LCs. People love the LC. That's my primary motivation.

Why can't people "really connect with" the RMB moderators or with an appointed team of RMB liaisons or advocates? This is why I asked on Discord: will more people support this if the bill to establish an "RMB liaison" team is folded into it, as opposed to operating as a separate/stand alone proposal?

People on the RMB (and I slightly agree with the following) like the Local Council and are happy with it. The LC serves their needs, and that's what they want. So, since they're happy with the Local Council, they're gonna be like: why get rid of it?

If I can be so blunt, there are individual needs and needs of the entire region. Sure, the LC fulfills the needs of a relatively loose hand on enforcement of rules and not providing any structure to prevent low quality posting running rampant and filling the RMB with a "fun" chaos.

That doesn't mean it's fulfilling the needs of the entire region. When it comes to facilitating larger projects (e.g. Z-Day) or actually promoting TSP's government, activities, etc. - the LC is often incapable and derelict in its duties. Furthermore, it reinforces the arbitrary idea of a gameside and forumside, an idea which itself is harmful to TSP's long-term development. And finally, even if the LC itself were capable, the idea of LC sovereignty as a gameside government is one which is destructive - it disincentivizes Cabinet/PM engagement with the gameside.

This is also why "well, the Cabinet doesn't engage the RMB!" isn't a persuasive argument. It's not their job to. If the Cabinet had both a job-requirement and actual powers to engage the RMB, they would. As it is, every time the Cabinet posts on the RMB about something, there's a good chance the LC will look at them and go "wtf", so they don't.

Minister of Foreign Affairs
General of the South Pacific Special Forces
Ambassador to Balder
Former Prime Minister and Minister of Defense

Reply

To be honest, it’s sounding like the primary motivation here that Lile wants to keep the title of Local Councillor, regardless of whatever change in purpose we make. I’m having a hard time understanding alternative motivations, when the latest proposal demolishes any unique purpose the LC would have that isn’t already under the purview of an existing ministry (even if it’s not currently being done by engagement/culture well enough).

Well, yes, I like the title, but I like how the people on gameside, including myself, can really connect with the LCs. People love the LC. That's my primary motivation.

Why can't people "really connect with" the RMB moderators or with an appointed team of RMB liaisons or advocates? This is why I asked on Discord: will more people support this if the bill to establish an "RMB liaison" team is folded into it, as opposed to operating as a separate/stand alone proposal?

People on the RMB (and I slightly agree with the following) like the Local Council and are happy with it. The LC serves their needs, and that's what they want. So, since they're happy with the Local Council, they're gonna be like: why get rid of it?

If I can be so blunt, there are individual needs and needs of the entire region. Sure, the LC fulfills the needs of a relatively loose hand on enforcement of rules and not providing any structure to prevent low quality posting running rampant and filling the RMB with a "fun" chaos.

That doesn't mean it's fulfilling the needs of the entire region. When it comes to facilitating larger projects (e.g. Z-Day) or actually promoting TSP's government, activities, etc. - the LC is often incapable and derelict in its duties. Furthermore, it reinforces the arbitrary idea of a gameside and forumside, an idea which itself is harmful to TSP's long-term development. And finally, even if the LC itself were capable, the idea of LC sovereignty as a gameside government is one which is destructive - it disincentivizes Cabinet/PM engagement with the gameside.

This is also why "well, the Cabinet doesn't engage the RMB!" isn't a persuasive argument. It's not their job to. If the Cabinet had both a job-requirement and actual powers to engage the RMB, they would. As it is, every time the Cabinet posts on the RMB about something, there's a good chance the LC will look at them and go "wtf", so they don't.

I really hate thread chains, but I did want to bring up a few things. I’m not now or have ever been tied to the name “local council”, so I don’t particularly care one way or another what we call them, but LC is what we currently use, and it’s easily recognizable in a conversation. So please don’t hammer people for using the designation.

Now, way back, I could tell when elections were rolling around because we would get candidates who we rarely saw on the rmb, but as an LC, I never had an issue with cabinet or whatever posting, figured it was important to the region. What I do take issue with is people saying the only official government is offsite, and then others saying it’s not their job to interact with the vast majority of region residents on the platform they most use. If you really want to ignore the rmb so bad, go start your own regions and recruit only the right sort. You’ve gotten spoiled by the regular infusion of new endorsements.

Reply

interact with the vast majority of region residents

I'm not actually sure where this notion comes from, because just because the RMB is open to our 12,000 nations doesn't mean it's actually frequented by them. Our "offsite" government that never interacts with our regional residents actually does do so through dispatches and telegrams, for instance. Both of these, through automated dispatch pings and regional telegrams, can reach a genuinely vas majority of regional residents, something the RMB has never done. (Which, before anyone says it, is fine, and doesn't mean I think anything less of the RMB! But can you imagine 12,000 people trying to use it at once?)

You’ve gotten spoiled by the regular infusion of new endorsements.

How is this related to the RMB, exactly? I get that sometimes people post welcome messages that include requests for endorsements. But that's just one part of an equation that includes things like the WFE. And have we talked about SWAN? The project, made by this "offsite" government that supposedly never does anything in-game, that uses in-game dispatches and in-game pings.

I also take issue with people saying the only official government is offsite, because it's already "on-site" in many ways. But it's a stretch to argue the RMB represents the "vast majority of region residents" that people are somehow ignoring.

Esfalsa | NationStates | Wiki | Roleplay | Discord

Reply

interact with the vast majority of region residents

I'm not actually sure where this notion comes from, because just because the RMB is open to our 12,000 nations doesn't mean it's actually frequented by them. Our "offsite" government that never interacts with our regional residents actually does do so through dispatches and telegrams, for instance. Both of these, through automated dispatch pings and regional telegrams, can reach a genuinely vas majority of regional residents, something the RMB has never done. (Which, before anyone says it, is fine, and doesn't mean I think anything less of the RMB! But can you imagine 12,000 people trying to use it at once?)

You’ve gotten spoiled by the regular infusion of new endorsements.

How is this related to the RMB, exactly? I get that sometimes people post welcome messages that include requests for endorsements. But that's just one part of an equation that includes things like the WFE. And have we talked about SWAN? The project, made by this "offsite" government that supposedly never does anything in-game, that uses in-game dispatches and in-game pings.

I also take issue with people saying the only official government is offsite, because it's already "on-site" in many ways. But it's a stretch to argue the RMB represents the "vast majority of region residents" that people are somehow ignoring.

You’d be surprised how many people pop through and just read it. Because someone doesn’t post, doesn’t mean they don’t use it. I can’t speak for anyone other then myself mind you, but I don’t just leap into whatever random conversations are ongoing unless I have an interest in the topic at hand. Plus some of my fellow old timers take exception to the general tone of the current rmb, which tells me they do look once in a while.

And to be honest, I’ll look at a telegram if I feel like it, but 9 times out of 10, I’ll just delete it because it’s just clutter in my inbox. That is subjective to who’s the sender too. And don’t be all sure about how effective the wfe is, considering how many times I’ve had to answer basic questions that are plainly on the lead in. But if you feel it works, more power to you.

I’m under no delusion about what the rmb is, its just a fast moving message board, but it’s not restricted to who can post or use it, so it’s a common medium of communication between players. At least it saves old messages and isn’t restrained to a measly 10 posts anymore, which is nice, but makes me glad some of my earliest posts are long gone.

And what part of my comment confuses you? As a region, you take for granted the new infusion of players who can be convinced to join the WA and give out endorsements. You don’t have to work to build the region, they just show up. So you might want to give some more consideration to them, if for no other reason then selfish motivation to keep up endorsements and influence.

And I’ll bet you more players swing through the rmb and read at least a few messages then stroll to another completely different website and read the forums.

Reply

You’d be surprised how many people pop through and just read it. Because someone doesn’t post, doesn’t mean they don’t use it. I can’t speak for anyone other then myself mind you, but I don’t just leap into whatever random conversations are ongoing unless I have an interest in the topic at hand.

I understand this pretty well actually, because I often do this myself At the same time, let's think about what proportion of our 12,000 current regional residents have ever engaged with the RMB. Maybe double, triple, even quadruple that number have read the RMB with any kind of care. But the yield is still low.

Of course, other methods of contact can also have low yield rates! Most recipients of regional telegrams probably ignore them. Most people who see the WFE probably don't read it, definitely not carefully. Most people who are pinged in government dispatches may ignore or mute those pings. There isn't a silver bullet for outreach and engagement, and that's precisely why we use many different ways of reaching out.

And what part of my comment confuses you?

The part where I, apparently, take a steady flow of new players for granted. Contrary to that suggestion, I deeply value the various forms of outreach available to us as a community, like those I've just listed. I also value the RMB as being, among other things, one of those avenues of outreach. But honestly, I have no clue where you got the idea that I don't like giving consideration to new players.

And I’ll bet you more players swing through the rmb and read at least a few messages then stroll to another completely different website and read the forums.

Nobody is making the claim that the forums are meant to entice new players — by design, they're an avenue for organized discussion from those who want to get more involved in the region, not some flashy advertisement to stay in our region and get more involved. The forums and RMB serve different purposes. Big deal.

Esfalsa | NationStates | Wiki | Roleplay | Discord

Reply

So, the first iteration of this proposal failed. I'm sorry I haven't had time to outline where I'd like to go with it since then, since I've been busy with other matters.

I'm intending to make a new proposal which is largely the same as the proposal we previously voted on with an additional bill/law for RMB Liaisons that report to the PM. This was discussed in the OP of the thread, but I decided to not include it in the final voting package, believing it would be able to be left up to executive discretion. However, some people seemed uncomfortable with the lack of legislatively defined supports, so I'll add it to a second iteration of the bill.

How do people feel about this?

Minister of Foreign Affairs
General of the South Pacific Special Forces
Ambassador to Balder
Former Prime Minister and Minister of Defense

Reply