| Split loyalties in officials |
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I brought this up once before, even at a lower level, asking about possibly not allowing dual citizenship, but decided to back off since there are a large majority that have dual citizenship. We've already seen conflicts of interest at the citizenship level where people have used their citizenship here to take "private" conversations back to another region. I, like Tsu, would love to see a "pure TSP" drive, but it ain't gonna happen and so it is. We may want to explore not being able to hold dual cabinet positions at the same time, but it ie what it is.
I have absolutely no problems with dual citizenship, but I think there's more support for a prohibition on officials holding foreign posts than you might think.
I don't think this should be termed in "regionalism vs. cosmopolitan' language, but looked at as expecting people to put TSP first. Minister of Media, Subversion and Sandwich Making
Associate Justice of the High Court and Senior Moderator ![[Image: B9ytUsy.png]](https://i.imgur.com/B9ytUsy.png)
(01-07-2015, 05:30 PM)Unibot Wrote: I think that kind of isolationism denies the equality of members in a trusting, democratic society, which sees members as equal TSPers. Just because, say, SB is a ranking member of DEN at times, doesn't stop him from being a TSPer. I find the suggestion that we can only trust people with 'one loyalty' to be an archaic, medieval principle. I hardly think it is an "archaic, medieval principle," but from someone with your level cosmopolitanism, I can see how you'd misunderstand the argument. My point was -- and remains -- that when someone is in TSP, I'd like to know they're engaged here and not using this region as an afterthought vote. Or simultaneously in another region sabotaging our foreign relations efforts. In any case, I get in trouble when I engage in this debate so I'm seeing myself to the door.
-tsunamy
[forum admin]
The issue is that, in reality, this has hardly happened here. People who are in the Cabinet and also in government elsewhere are only accused of not giving "enough" attention or showing enough "loyalty" to TSP by their political opponents or for politically opportunistic reasons. Bringing this up itself is political, because we all know this isn't a "bizarre situation" that Belschaft just recently discovered. Belschaft and Unibot are political archrivals, and prohibiting Cabinet members from holding government positions elsewhere would force Unibot to either resign from office here or resign from office in TRR. That's the unavoidable context of this thread, regardless of anybody here chastising Unibot for "attacking" Belschaft.
I'm far more concerned with dual citizenship being a vulnerability for our community, than I am with people holding office in multiple regions. For the latter, my concern is simply that it's a concentration of power that is exclusionary in principle, meaning other ideas and new players can't break into the upper echelons anywhere. For the former, simply being a citizen in TSP gives you all the power you need to sabotage our foreign affairs or manipulate our elections or whatever is the security concern du jour in TSP. Most people running for Cabinet want to be re-elected, and they can do so infinitely if they wanted to. That desire to be re-elected constrains poor behavior. There's nothing stopping anybody from being an unpopular citizen, or from getting all of their friends to apply for citizenship and push through major changes without ever being elected. (Or, hey, stop the re-election of a rival, which happens all the time in regions with lax citizenship laws.) Dual citizenship is far more susceptible to gaming. So I'm not sure why anybody concerned over Cabinet members holding positions elsewhere wouldn't be also concerned with dual citizenship, if not more.
In an ideal world I would argue for a ban on dual citizenship Glen, but I don't think that's viable. The fact that it isn't viable is not however an argument against tataking similar though lesser steps.
Minister of Media, Subversion and Sandwich Making
Associate Justice of the High Court and Senior Moderator
I'm not sure banning people from the Cabinet for serving in other regions at the same time is a "lesser" step. It's a politically-driven reform, and we're being dishonest if we ignore that.
I'm not keen on this topic. I can't help but feel that this is being considered with the aims of targeting a small select number of people in this region who are prominent in other regions.
If any such restrictions should come into effect here, you can expect my prompt resignation. I have never allowed for a conflict of interest, I have always moderated myself and acted accordingly. I will not be made to feel like some criminal because others do not hold themselves to the standards that I do, nor will I allow others to insult me by muttering about the "multiple foreign offices, conflicts, bah humbug". I will also go further and say that no matter what laws go into effect, what I do outside of the South Pacific under the name of another nation is none of anyone's business except my own unless I violate the sovereignty of TSP or one of its treated allies. I bent over backwards to give as detailed a COI declaration as possible during the last election, if news of my foreign roles is a surprise to anyone then it serves you right for not reading. #justsaying Should I post another COI? Why not mandate that officials need to have an uptodate COI disclosure? I could work with that. I've done it before and maintain one in Equilism.
One of the best ways to recruit new, active citizens is from other regions. I ended up in TSP because I was a diplomat from Europeia, and I ended up in Europeia because I was a diplomat in Equinox. Many people have enough free time to dedicate themselves to multiple regions. Other loyalties should be considered during elections, but there's no hard and fast rule, as far as I'm concerned.
We've sort of had this conversation once before during a debate on an Amendment to Article 1 of the charter around August/September 2014.
The idea of "pure" South Pacificans seems a little too much nationalist to me. What if (x) spent three years in TNP, but came here and migrated from there? And what if he wants to call TSP as his home later then? Are we going to banish him? Because that's unfair, if you ask me.
People can get involved as many regions as they want, but they can be loyal to us as well. And political archrivals? Please, if this is a trick or something, Belschaft, then knock it off already. No one needs hatred, and we do not want more of it.
Deputy Regional Minister of the Planning and Development Agency(March 8-May 19, 2014)
Local Council Member(April 24-August 11) Court Justice of TSP(August 15-December 7) |
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