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  The South Pacific Hall of Historical Records Archives Fudgetopia Hall of Government Assembly of the South Pacific [PASSED] Amendment to Article 3 of the Elections Act (Delegate Election)

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[PASSED] Amendment to Article 3 of the Elections Act (Delegate Election)
  • Offline The Sakhalinsk Empire
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#21
08-12-2018, 04:13 AM

(Apologize beforehand for my briefness)

While I'm comfortable with most voting systems other than FPTP, my favorite is IRV. Not to say that I don't like Approval Voting (or AV if you want to continue the acronym game), but get this: many people seem to disagree with AV and want to remove it (shown with some old threads). As such, I don't think this would be a good idea. Just stick with IRV.
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#22
08-13-2018, 07:12 PM

(08-11-2018, 11:29 PM)Tim Wrote: Completely opposed.

Approval voting has shown itself to be an unpopular mess of a system. It's the last thing we should be going for, and I'd really like to stress that even our curent system is better than going with this.
(08-12-2018, 04:13 AM)siames Wrote: (Apologize beforehand for my briefness)

While I'm comfortable with most voting systems other than FPTP, my favorite is IRV. Not to say that I don't like Approval Voting (or AV if you want to continue the acronym game), but get this: many people seem to disagree with AV and want to remove it (shown with some old threads). As such, I don't think this would be a good idea. Just stick with IRV.

The voting method has to work with what the intended outcome is. Do we want to have polarized candidates or do we want candidates who have a wide support in the region? For delegate, I think we want the later, since the position is intended to be relatively symbolic and the holder is intended to be someone not controversial and well-liked.

While I appreciate the desire to stick with IRV, that's *not* what we're using when it comes to the delegate election. It's a bastardized version of IRV that has been molded over time. Moreover, we've also had issues with IRV — we just forget them because they aren't the most recent controversy. (For example, our current system can, actually, has the potential to create ties as well; And, we currently don't have a way to resolve that.)

Further, this draft has mechanism for a tie.

We're not going to have a perfect election process; the best we can do is mold as we move forward. This draft addresses from of the issues of the election, as well as the issues of approval voting.
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  • Offline Tim
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#23
08-13-2018, 09:58 PM

(08-13-2018, 07:12 PM)Tsunamy Wrote: While I appreciate the desire to stick with IRV, that's *not* what we're using when it comes to the delegate election. It's a bastardized version of IRV that has been molded over time. Moreover, we've also had issues with IRV — we just forget them because they aren't the most recent controversy. (For example, our current system can, actually, has the potential to create ties as well; And, we currently don't have a way to resolve that.)

I'm honestly okay with every single issue our current system has, if the alternative is using the godawful mess that is Approval Voting. You're right, we're not going to have a perfect process, but you sure seem to be trying to push this one though there are no other options and we may as well pick this one.

What seem to be consistent opinions throughout the threat are retaining 1v1 Gameside, and that approval voting was a mess. I think we should follow those vibes.
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(This post was last modified: 08-13-2018, 09:58 PM by Tim.)
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#24
08-21-2018, 06:57 AM

(07-26-2018, 06:03 PM)Roavin Wrote: That seems like a good option, actually. I can run the past N Delegate elections through my script to show sample output for all of them, etc.

Actually, if somebody has some time to kill, they can run through the past Delegate elections and prep files, with one ballot per line, in the following format:

Code:
Voter:Choice1,Choice2,Choice3

Do let me know if you're doing it (and I'll post if I end up doing it myself afterall).
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#25
11-01-2018, 11:25 PM

Thanks to Nakari for gathering the data.

In January 2018, Seraph and Tsunamy are the winners for the Belschaft method, the M-IRV method, and approval voting; in all three cases without a close third place. With Condorcet, however, Seraph and Drall would have moved on, as Drall had a much wider base of meager support amongst the population.

In July 2017, Seraph and Drugged Monkeys won the forum election under the current system, with Sam111 trailing far behind. With M-IRV, Sam would have almost beaten DM in the second round (by one vote). With Condorcet and Approval, Sam would have just barely beaten DM (by one vote in each case).

In January 2017, Tsu and Sandaoguo won the forum election under the current system, with Zak being very close (in fact, it was a tie that Feirmont resolved by using second-preference votes). With M-IRV, Sandaoguo would have won outright with Drugged Monkeys a close (one vote) third. It can be assumed that Tsunamy voters were likely also DM-supporters. With Condorcet, Sandaoguo and Tsunamy would have moved on, with Zak a not-close but not-far third place. With approval voting, Drugged Monkeys would have actually pulled ahead of Tsunamy by one vote, with a tie for second place among Sandaoguo, Tsunamy, and Zak, plus Belschaft being close with 2 votes behind.

In July 2016, there were only two candidates anyway.

Raw data:
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#26
11-01-2018, 11:53 PM

I'm not sure this maps on exactly ... but largely this supports what I've been saying

Me/RT, Seraph/Me, Seraph/Sam, DM/whoever, would all be match ups of people with broad bases of support.
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#27
01-03-2019, 03:13 PM

*hip checks this thread*

Let's talk about this now.

Certainly the *current* delegate elections will be held under the old system, but let's get this right for time go around.
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#28
01-03-2019, 03:18 PM

I'm all for approval voting, we just (as has been said by almost everyone at some point) really need to make sure there's a clear guide on how it works and what people need to do (and not do) to ensure the candidates they approve of get through.
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(This post was last modified: 01-03-2019, 03:19 PM by Seraph.)
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#29
01-03-2019, 10:39 PM

I remember there being some sort of discussion or debate about which voting method was best, but I can't seem to find it. What was the context or reasoning behind adopting ranked-choice voting?
 
(01-03-2019, 03:18 PM)Seraph Wrote: I'm all for approval voting, we just (as has been said by almost everyone at some point) really need to make sure there's a clear guide on how it works and what people need to do (and not do) to ensure the candidates they approve of get through.

I don't think approval voting is that hard to understand, and I would argue that it's simpler than ranked-choice voting in general (IRV, Condorcet, etc.). Of course, that's not a reason to not have a guide, but I don't think complexity is a reason to not adopt approval voting. I'm not sure we should be encouraging people to vote in order to "ensure" anything, though, because voter satisfaction decreases when voters vote "tactically" or "strategically."

I just read this article, and although it's admittedly not the most reliable source, I think it makes a few good arguments for score voting. I want to put it out in the discussion, but until I understand why we've adopted ranked-choice voting I can't really say I have much of a position.
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#30
01-04-2019, 04:03 AM

(01-03-2019, 10:39 PM)Pronoun Wrote: I remember there being some sort of discussion or debate about which voting method was best, but I can't seem to find it. What was the context or reasoning behind adopting ranked-choice voting?
 
(01-03-2019, 03:18 PM)Seraph Wrote: I'm all for approval voting, we just (as has been said by almost everyone at some point) really need to make sure there's a clear guide on how it works and what people need to do (and not do) to ensure the candidates they approve of get through.

I don't think approval voting is that hard to understand, and I would argue that it's simpler than ranked-choice voting in general (IRV, Condorcet, etc.). Of course, that's not a reason to not have a guide, but I don't think complexity is a reason to not adopt approval voting. I'm not sure we should be encouraging people to vote in order to "ensure" anything, though, because voter satisfaction decreases when voters vote "tactically" or "strategically."

I just read this article, and although it's admittedly not the most reliable source, I think it makes a few good arguments for score voting. I want to put it out in the discussion, but until I understand why we've adopted ranked-choice voting I can't really say I have much of a position.
I don't think it's complicated, either, but we have reason to believe that people have not understood it when it has been implemented in the past.
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  The South Pacific Hall of Historical Records Archives Fudgetopia Hall of Government Assembly of the South Pacific [PASSED] Amendment to Article 3 of the Elections Act (Delegate Election)


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