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~~Unibot~~ · 07-23-2014, 09:49 PM

June 1st 2013. Belschaft speaks with Frattastan in retrospect regarding an attempted TSP coup of TRR (which he planned). He calls TNI's war with the FRA, bollocks - which any reasonable person will tell you is completely accurate. The war effort is most certainly bollocks. It's always been a simple practice of diplomatic isolation.

Quote:<Bel> I was planning Milograd style anti-forum rhetoric for that part
<Bel> I was also counting on Unibot keeping UDL out of TRR from spite, which would have been important. I also figured TNI/LKE/Euro would act according to their anti-FRA war bollocks

April 18 2013. Belschaft proposes repealing TNI-TSP -- on the grounds that relations with TNI misrepresented our region's values (a reasonable argument which I agreed with).

Quote:Having looked over our extant treaties I would like to propose the repeal of two of them; TSP-LWU (http://forums.thesouthpacific.org/topic/...sp-treaty/) My reasons here are fairly simple. LWU is a defunct organisation, and as such the treaty is already by extension defunct; this is a simple matter of record keeping. TSP-TNI (http://forums.thesouthpacific.org/topic/...ni-treaty/) With TNI matters are slightly more complicated.

Firstly, I do not personally support an alliance between ourselves and an imperialist region; I do not believe that such an arrangement is in keeping with our ideals and principles, most notably democracy and regional sovereignty.

Secondly, following the partial merger of TNI and LKE with the creation of the UIAF (United Imperial Armed Forces), their new joint military, we have been tied by extension to another region. As such I believe we should revoke the current treaty, regardless of peoples opinions regarding TNI, and should the Assembly disagree with my first point seek a new arrangement with the UIAF as a whole.

God-Emperor originally seconded the call to cancel the treaty. The UIAF was included into the treaty without a renegotiation of the text or a revote by Hileville and Cere.

The original vote, TSP-TNI treaty was by no means non-controversial, by the way. It was one of the few treaties at the time to not pass unanimously. Lazarus-TSP, for example was passed unanimously at a similar point in time in 2012. TSP-TNI, on the other hand passed 7-4-4 (63%). Contrary to the urban legend that UDL tried to control the vote - aye votes included the Chief Lt. (Milograd) and the most senior Lt. (Eluvatar), as well as a future Chief of the Band (Mahaj) and I, a vocal opponent of the bill, abstained. Interestingly, Belschaft never voted on the treaty (possibly he was away - although he had served as MoFA in Feb when the treaty was negotiated). Amusingly, one of the aye votes was Haxstree / Frak. He was a vocal fan of it even. -_-

(This post was last modified: 07-23-2014, 09:56 PM by Sandwich Territories.)

***Tsunamy*** · 07-24-2014, 01:00 AM

(07-23-2014, 09:49 PM)Unibot Wrote: June 1st 2013. Belschaft speaks with Frattastan in retrospect regarding an attempted TSP coup of TRR (which he planned). He calls TNI's war with the FRA, bollocks - which any reasonable person will tell you is completely accurate. The war effort is most certainly bollocks. It's always been a simple practice of diplomatic isolation.

Quote:<Bel> I was planning Milograd style anti-forum rhetoric for that part
<Bel> I was also counting on Unibot keeping UDL out of TRR from spite, which would have been important. I also figured TNI/LKE/Euro would act according to their anti-FRA war bollocks

April 18 2013. Belschaft proposes repealing TNI-TSP -- on the grounds that relations with TNI misrepresented our region's values (a reasonable argument which I agreed with).

Quote:Having looked over our extant treaties I would like to propose the repeal of two of them; TSP-LWU (http://forums.thesouthpacific.org/topic/...sp-treaty/) My reasons here are fairly simple. LWU is a defunct organisation, and as such the treaty is already by extension defunct; this is a simple matter of record keeping. TSP-TNI (http://forums.thesouthpacific.org/topic/...ni-treaty/) With TNI matters are slightly more complicated.

Firstly, I do not personally support an alliance between ourselves and an imperialist region; I do not believe that such an arrangement is in keeping with our ideals and principles, most notably democracy and regional sovereignty.

Secondly, following the partial merger of TNI and LKE with the creation of the UIAF (United Imperial Armed Forces), their new joint military, we have been tied by extension to another region. As such I believe we should revoke the current treaty, regardless of peoples opinions regarding TNI, and should the Assembly disagree with my first point seek a new arrangement with the UIAF as a whole.

God-Emperor originally seconded the call to cancel the treaty. The UIAF was included into the treaty without a renegotiation of the text or a revote by Hileville and Cere.

The original vote, TSP-TNI treaty was by no means non-controversial, by the way. It was one of the few treaties at the time to not pass unanimously. Lazarus-TSP, for example was passed unanimously at a similar point in time in 2012. TSP-TNI, on the other hand passed 7-4-4 (63%). Contrary to the urban legend that UDL tried to control the vote - aye votes included the Chief Lt. (Milograd) and the most senior Lt. (Eluvatar), as well as a future Chief of the Band (Mahaj) and I, a vocal opponent of the bill, abstained. Interestingly, Belschaft never voted on the treaty (possibly he was away - although he had served as MoFA in Feb when the treaty was negotiated). Amusingly, one of the aye votes was Haxstree / Frak. He was a vocal fan of it even. -_-

Am I the only one who either 1) doesn't know what this means, and/or 2) doesn't give a damn what this means?

-tsunamy
[forum admin]

God-Emperor · 07-24-2014, 01:14 AM

No.

The Third Imperium
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Provost, Magisterium
Sergeant, East Pacific Sovereign Army
Journalist, East Pacific News Service
Foreign Affairs Minister, The West Pacific

***sandaoguo*** · 07-24-2014, 01:49 AM

(07-24-2014, 01:00 AM)Tsunamy Wrote: Am I the only one who either 1) doesn't know what this means, and/or 2) doesn't give a damn what this means?

I imagine Unibot is attempting to point out that the TSP-TNI Treaty never was this universally acclaimed bedrock of TSP foreign affairs, using Belschaft's own inconsistency on this issue for added effect.

***Tsunamy*** · 07-24-2014, 01:57 PM

(07-24-2014, 01:49 AM)Sandaoguo Wrote:
(07-24-2014, 01:00 AM)Tsunamy Wrote: Am I the only one who either 1) doesn't know what this means, and/or 2) doesn't give a damn what this means?

I imagine Unibot is attempting to point out that the TSP-TNI Treaty never was this universally acclaimed bedrock of TSP foreign affairs, using Belschaft's own inconsistency on this issue for added effect.

Again, why does this matter?

It doesn't matter whether or not the treaty was "controversial" at the time of passage. What matters is that it was passed.

Bels' point is that the TSP-TRR treaty was passed as a backhanded way to repeal the TSP-TNI treaty without having to repeal it.

Honestly, I don't think any of this matters. We're currently allied with TRR and not with the TNI. We need to play the hand at we're currently holding, not rehashing the cards we already threw in.

-tsunamy
[forum admin]

**Rebeltopia** · 07-24-2014, 02:57 PM

The problem is, we are still holding the cards someone else threw away for us.

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**Belschaft** · 07-24-2014, 03:15 PM

If we value honesty it matters.

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***Tsunamy*** · 07-24-2014, 03:37 PM

(07-24-2014, 03:15 PM)Belschaft Wrote: If we value honesty it matters.

Yes -- that is proper to discuss. It just doesn't change the current position of our foreign policy.

-tsunamy
[forum admin]

Penguin · 07-24-2014, 04:27 PM

So what are we gonna do about it?

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HEM · 07-24-2014, 04:41 PM

Frankly, I would say it means we need to hold people accountable a ditch a few people in leadership positions, but it appears that our region has already decided to affirm both the Delegate and the Minister of Foreign Affairs. Quite honestly, I think that binds us from doing much of anything at all. We just re-elected the people responsible for this farce.

I think it would be prudent to issue a public apology to the New Inquisition for not providing them public notice of our decision to cast lots with their enemy. But besides that, I don't think there's anything else to be done. Our loss, the defender sphere's gain, I suppose.