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Some things I feel like should be said but... - Printable Version

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RE: Some things I feel like should be said but... - Belschaft - 03-08-2016

(03-08-2016, 04:12 PM)Kris Kringle Wrote:
You were not forced out of the region, your citizenship was merely removed. You were entirely free to continue participating on the Regional Message Board and all areas of the forum that did not require citizenship. Milograd is the only person who was genuinely forced out of the region.

Quite frankly, I truly believe you would be very happy to see Glen leave the region and that, even subconsciously, drives your relatively hostile approach towards him, just as I also believe Glen would be very happy to see you leave the region, even if he says he can coexist with you. I don't believe for a second either of you would admit it, but I honestly believe that it the case.

As an aside, I also don't believe you are truly trying to find common ground. I believe you believe you the coup wasn't that big of a deal, because the system really is dysfunctional, and the only people affected were people who are politically controversial. That means you, naturally, don't feel the same drive or need to be tough in your treatment of the coupers and the whole situation.

I don't think that's entirely your fault. I mean, I don't believe compromise is even possible, in this situation. One side believes the coup wasn't so serious and the coupers believe to be forgiven, another side simply doesn't believe forgiveness should be an option, while many are caught in the middle. You can't really half-forgive them. I can't speak for other people who also believe the coup was more serious than the treatment it's getting, but personally, my problem isn't that you don't treat it seriously, as much as it's that I don't get the feeling you are actually trying to see my side of the issue, and instead you're sticking to calling my positions uncompromising, as if it was my responsibility to unconditionally forgive the very people who mounted a smear campaign against me and then ejected me from the region.

Example: would you have unconditionally forgiven Milograd for all he did, less than an month after the coup? Would you really think it would be fair for people to call you uncompromising for not wanting to forgive him? It's the same thing with me, and with others. Sure, this time only three nations were ejected, but you're talking to those three nations. They feel that same sense of betrayal you felt towards Milograd, and it's not fair for you to ask of them what nobody asked of you, and with good reason.

In short, my problem is I don't think you're upfront about not actually trying to find compromise (even if I believe compromise isn't really possible), as much as you're trying to frame your own position as compromise. Could I be wrong? Sure, I definitely could be. But that's the feeling I get, and I honestly don't think you can blame me for getting that impression.
It's not secret that I detest Glen, just as it's no secret that Glen detests me. If he was to leave TSP I would shed exactly zero tears, and would possibly even host a small party. But, and this is the all important but, I'm not suggesting, calling for, or voting for that. I don't like Glen; I can, however, live with him.

The reason why I don't think that the Crisis/Coup was "such a big deal", or in anyway comparable to Milograd's actions, can be explained in a series of relatively simple points;

1. Just Cause: There was genuine cause for the cabinets actions in regards to the forum move, something that is near unanimously recognized, though we all agree that in dissolving the Coalition and ban-jecting people they went too far.

2. Limited Action: The Cabinet ejected three people, attempted to minimize damage and disruption, brought in no foreign troops, and stood down unconditionally once the region made it's opposition clear. None of these are true about Milograd.

3. Cause and Effect: The Cabinets decision to escalate the Crisis, whilst wrong, was directly caused by Farengeto's decision to refuse to recuse himself from the Court case. There was something which can be genuinely identified as having caused their actions, and led to their response. Milograd couped out of nowhere, with no prior warning or reasons.

As such, the comparison to Milograd just can't be realistically made. I can understand why you, Glen and Far feel angry and hurt over what happened, but objectively speaking the Crisis was a relatively minor incident.

In regards to compromise, I agree entirely that this is a difficult topic. There is such a thing as unreconcilable differences; the CSS is an obvious case. You, Glen and Far don't want Sam as a CSS member - I do want him as a CSS member. There's no middle ground there. But have you considered that it's possible that I might not want you or Glen on the CSS, and have simply not been brining the topic up as I know it would be pointless, divisive and lead to nothing but arguments? To my mind you, Glen and Sam all being on the CSS is a compromise. I've suggested to Tsu that he nominate a couple of new CSS members to make the membership broader and less divided - I've even given him a couple of names, people I think no one would object to and everyone would support.

Similarly, I haven't brought the issue of you and Glen remaining admins up, despite the fact that I think such is completely untenable; again, I don't think it would do any damn good. I have every intention of raising the issue during the Great Council, because it can't be avoided for ever, but I've intentionally not started that fight to avoid that fight.

There are always going to be areas where we can't agree, and one side or the other is going to go home unhappy, but in most areas we can find a compromise, or won't have to as we do agree. How about focussing on those areas, and building some basis of good faith, rather than engaging in histrionics like Glen has been in this thread? To list just a few areas where I think agreement and progress are possible, which I also intend to deal with during the Great Council;

1. Electoral Reform
2. Separation of powers
3. Reduction/simplification in the security apparatus
4. Better codification of executive powers
5. Better forum moderation
6. Judicial reform
7. Increasing gameside powers/participation
8. De-politicisation of the Delegacy

The only genuine areas where I don't think me and you could compromise is how to deal with the Cabinet members imnvolved in the Crisis, as you wan't a more severe punishment than I believe is justified, and forum administration, as I doubt you would agree with me that you are Glen need to step down as admins. Even that old pain in the arse issue of Military Alignment isn't a problem anymore, as Unibot was the only one insane enough to insist on resurrecting it every single month in the hopes that this time, if he was annoying enough, people would agree to become defenders if only to make him shut up about it.

Addendum; Don't be facetious re; the declaration that I was a security threat. Stripping me of citizenship most definitely constituted forcing me out of TSP, especially with you and/or Glen (I never did know which one of you was doing it) changing the posting/viewing permissions in various parts of the forums to limit it to citizens only. Even if being locked out of politics, the legislature, elections, etc etc - quite literally, in that I could neither see nor post in 75% of those areas - wasn't enough, the fact that someone on the admin team was abusing their power by locking residents out of everywhere they could kinda made it even more the case.


RE: Some things I feel like should be said but... - Tsunamy - 03-08-2016

(03-08-2016, 02:23 PM)sandaoguo Wrote: What moderate center has been driven out? The bulk of TSP has been, for many years, the types of players you're saying are driving people away. Yes, people have left the region, and those people tend to have been involved in some scandal or left because they lost at politics. But they decided to engage in it in the first place, so it's not like they're the chill apolitical people that are allegedly being driven away.

When I look at our history, I see plenty of new players that get involved and stick around. They've risen through the ranks of government, too. They haven't been driven out.

You mention Serres, but form what I understand, they don't really disagree with what I'm saying and actually think it might be worth having political parties too.

I'm not imposing anything on anybody. I'm just telling it how it is. If anything, you are trying to force players to act a certain way, rather than do what comes natural in a game built on rivalry. Reject it as much as you want, but your consensus building way of leadership isn't superior, and the politics of Gameplayers isn't inferior to it.

It's this constant tsk-tsk'ing that's causing problems, too. This desire to force people into a clean box of compromise and moderation, when some people just don't like each other and have polar opposite politics. That's what's led to this craziness of Sam still being on the CSS, Belschaft now denying there was a coup, and a bunch of other BS that wouldn't exist if it wasn't "divisive" to call people out. Like, stripping Sam of his RO powers (but not really, because it's "retroactive") was billed as a compromise that 98% of us agree with-- but it's not, actually. It's what you thought was a good compromise. But those of us who are actually the aggrieved party here weren't asked if we liked it! And that's really typical of the culture that has led us down this path in the first place. In a desire to just silence a controversial issue, somebody came up with a "moderate" position, but that decision hasn't addressed what the actual issue is in the first place.

If we were to just let people duke it out, it would be settled. Sam would either be in the CSS or not, based on votes and a political process that includes rhetoric, resignations, and people deciding they could live with it after getting the chance to actually put up a fight. That's not unhealthy and it's not a problem!

You want a government and elections, but you don't want politics. You want to count diehard enemies among the community, but you don't want them to fight. And the way I'm understand it, your solution is to have a group of apolitical "moderates" who get to make the final decision.

Glen — you lost the vote on Sam. You want to "duke it out"? You lost. Deal with it.

This is another example of reading the situation to your liking. You don't get to keep voting on something until you get the outcome you like.

I never claimed to be "superior," I've just been outlining away around the crap you keep bringing the region into. However, as with everything else, you don't want to listen to or even partly accept any other thoughts. Instead, you keep slamming me for not buying into your way thinking while summarily dismissing what I'm trying to say.

I'm done "tsk-tsking" as you've called it.


RE: Some things I feel like should be said but... - Kris Kringle - 03-08-2016

Long reply to Belschaft.




RE: Some things I feel like should be said but... - Darkstrait - 03-08-2016

I read this thread, and I realized why I never want to get back into TSP politics.

No, seriously, who would put up with this crap when they could just roleplay or go chill on the RMB?

(rhetorical question)


Some things I feel like should be said but... - sandaoguo - 03-09-2016

There's plenty of people here, Darkstrait.


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Some things I feel like should be said but... - sandaoguo - 03-09-2016

(03-08-2016, 06:20 PM)Tsunamy Wrote: Glen — you lost the vote on Sam. You want to "duke it out"? You lost. Deal with it.

When Belschaft lost the vote to restore his citizenship, you weren't there telling him he lost and to deal with it. You were upset about it and thought the whole thing was absurd. Then we changed the voting threshold and voted again.

The same thing happens with Sam, and now I'm toxic and divisive and annoying for thinking the vote was absurd and that we need to do it again.

The difference is that you thought Bel should be given citizenship. You think Sam shouldn't be recalled, now that the Cabinet has declared a "compromise." So these are the "reasonable" positions to hold, and if you don't hold them, you're the problem.

That's how the "moderation" you want tends to work. It's not that any real compromise is reached that tries to please both parties. It's that a position is held, it's just called a compromise, and disagreement with that position is deeply frowned upon and gets the ire of the Reasonable People.

That's why I'm dismissive of your arguments right now: because I've experienced our regional politics under "moderation" and it's never ended well.

Literally all I'm saying is for you and everybody else to just stop forcing people to get along or else. Let people dislike each other and have disagreements. It's not a radical thing to say. Don't interject and try to force a compromise nobody's asking for, only to treat those who don't like the chosen compromise as childish and intransigent.

I'm not saying everybody needs to start fighting to death over every issue. I'm saying every issue doesn't need to be "solved" by an ironclad consensus.

@Bel: I resigned from the CSS 2 days ago.

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RE: Some things I feel like should be said but... - Darkstrait - 03-09-2016

(03-09-2016, 06:47 PM)sandaoguo Wrote: There's plenty of people here, Darkstrait.


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Right, I just don't understand why. What makes the sort of stress and pain that this sort of situation causes worth it?

(not rhetorical)


RE: Some things I feel like should be said but... - Kris Kringle - 03-09-2016

(03-09-2016, 09:56 PM)Darkstrait Wrote: What makes the sort of stress and pain that this sort of situation causes worth it?

It isn't.


Some things I feel like should be said but... - sandaoguo - 03-09-2016

(03-09-2016, 09:56 PM)Darkstrait Wrote:
(03-09-2016, 06:47 PM)sandaoguo Wrote: There's plenty of people here, Darkstrait.


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Right, I just don't understand why. What makes the sort of stress and pain that this sort of situation causes worth it?

(not rhetorical)

I don't find it painful. Maybe you're just not the kind of person who likes this stuff, and that's fine. You don't have to involve yourself in it.

I've never understood people who sign up for a political online game and then get upset when people argue.


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RE: Some things I feel like should be said but... - Kris Kringle - 03-09-2016

I suppose it depends on the kind of arguments and the particular reason why you joined the game. NationStates is a political game, but there are many different ways of playing it. Some like the fierce arguments you get in regional governments. Some prefer to debate about real life politics. Some prefer to manage their nations. Some prefer to roleplay and create entire worlds. You have arguments in all those aspects, but the tone in each is different, and government arguments are by far much more toxic to many.

To use myself as an example. I really enjoy politics, and for a very long time I enjoyed getting involved in regional politics, as opposed to roleplaying. But recently I've found it more difficult to separate the real person from the regional politician, and that means I'm the toxicity in certain arguments affects me much more nowadays. I still get involved when I feel strongly about an issue, but regional politics is no longer the main reason for my continued involvement in the region. I know this is a political game, but that doesn't mean I enjoy seeing the kind of arguments we sometimes see in the Assembly.

Basically, people know this is a political game, but they don't necessarily come with the same kind of politics in mind, and many find it discouraging to see people debating so fiercely. They can choose to ignore that aspect, but regional politics being so omnipresent, they sometimes can't avoid feeling dragged into it, and for those not hardened by constant political involvement, it can be nasty.