(03-08-2016, 04:12 PM)Kris Kringle Wrote:

You were not forced out of the region, your citizenship was merely removed. You were entirely free to continue participating on the Regional Message Board and all areas of the forum that did not require citizenship. Milograd is the only person who was genuinely forced out of the region.

Quite frankly, I truly believe you would be very happy to see Glen leave the region and that, even subconsciously, drives your relatively hostile approach towards him, just as I also believe Glen would be very happy to see you leave the region, even if he says he can coexist with you. I don't believe for a second either of you would admit it, but I honestly believe that it the case.

As an aside, I also don't believe you are truly trying to find common ground. I believe you believe you the coup wasn't that big of a deal, because the system really is dysfunctional, and the only people affected were people who are politically controversial. That means you, naturally, don't feel the same drive or need to be tough in your treatment of the coupers and the whole situation.

I don't think that's entirely your fault. I mean, I don't believe compromise is even possible, in this situation. One side believes the coup wasn't so serious and the coupers believe to be forgiven, another side simply doesn't believe forgiveness should be an option, while many are caught in the middle. You can't really half-forgive them. I can't speak for other people who also believe the coup was more serious than the treatment it's getting, but personally, my problem isn't that you don't treat it seriously, as much as it's that I don't get the feeling you are actually trying to see my side of the issue, and instead you're sticking to calling my positions uncompromising, as if it was my responsibility to unconditionally forgive the very people who mounted a smear campaign against me and then ejected me from the region.

Example: would you have unconditionally forgiven Milograd for all he did, less than an month after the coup? Would you really think it would be fair for people to call you uncompromising for not wanting to forgive him? It's the same thing with me, and with others. Sure, this time only three nations were ejected, but you're talking to those three nations. They feel that same sense of betrayal you felt towards Milograd, and it's not fair for you to ask of them what nobody asked of you, and with good reason.

In short, my problem is I don't think you're upfront about not actually trying to find compromise (even if I believe compromise isn't really possible), as much as you're trying to frame your own position as compromise. Could I be wrong? Sure, I definitely could be. But that's the feeling I get, and I honestly don't think you can blame me for getting that impression.

It's not secret that I detest Glen, just as it's no secret that Glen detests me. If he was to leave TSP I would shed exactly zero tears, and would possibly even host a small party. But, and this is the all important but, I'm not suggesting, calling for, or voting for that. I don't like Glen; I can, however, live with him.

The reason why I don't think that the Crisis/Coup was "such a big deal", or in anyway comparable to Milograd's actions, can be explained in a series of relatively simple points;

1. Just Cause: There was genuine cause for the cabinets actions in regards to the forum move, something that is near unanimously recognized, though we all agree that in dissolving the Coalition and ban-jecting people they went too far.

2. Limited Action: The Cabinet ejected three people, attempted to minimize damage and disruption, brought in no foreign troops, and stood down unconditionally once the region made it's opposition clear. None of these are true about Milograd.

3. Cause and Effect: The Cabinets decision to escalate the Crisis, whilst wrong, was directly caused by Farengeto's decision to refuse to recuse himself from the Court case. There was something which can be genuinely identified as having caused their actions, and led to their response. Milograd couped out of nowhere, with no prior warning or reasons.

As such, the comparison to Milograd just can't be realistically made. I can understand why you, Glen and Far feel angry and hurt over what happened, but objectively speaking the Crisis was a relatively minor incident.

In regards to compromise, I agree entirely that this is a difficult topic. There is such a thing as unreconcilable differences; the CSS is an obvious case. You, Glen and Far don't want Sam as a CSS member - I do want him as a CSS member. There's no middle ground there. But have you considered that it's possible that I might not want you or Glen on the CSS, and have simply not been brining the topic up as I know it would be pointless, divisive and lead to nothing but arguments? To my mind you, Glen and Sam all being on the CSS is a compromise. I've suggested to Tsu that he nominate a couple of new CSS members to make the membership broader and less divided - I've even given him a couple of names, people I think no one would object to and everyone would support.

Similarly, I haven't brought the issue of you and Glen remaining admins up, despite the fact that I think such is completely untenable; again, I don't think it would do any damn good. I have every intention of raising the issue during the Great Council, because it can't be avoided for ever, but I've intentionally not started that fight to avoid that fight.

There are always going to be areas where we can't agree, and one side or the other is going to go home unhappy, but in most areas we can find a compromise, or won't have to as we do agree. How about focussing on those areas, and building some basis of good faith, rather than engaging in histrionics like Glen has been in this thread? To list just a few areas where I think agreement and progress are possible, which I also intend to deal with during the Great Council;

1. Electoral Reform
2. Separation of powers
3. Reduction/simplification in the security apparatus
4. Better codification of executive powers
5. Better forum moderation
6. Judicial reform
7. Increasing gameside powers/participation
8. De-politicisation of the Delegacy

The only genuine areas where I don't think me and you could compromise is how to deal with the Cabinet members imnvolved in the Crisis, as you wan't a more severe punishment than I believe is justified, and forum administration, as I doubt you would agree with me that you are Glen need to step down as admins. Even that old pain in the arse issue of Military Alignment isn't a problem anymore, as Unibot was the only one insane enough to insist on resurrecting it every single month in the hopes that this time, if he was annoying enough, people would agree to become defenders if only to make him shut up about it.

Addendum; Don't be facetious re; the declaration that I was a security threat. Stripping me of citizenship most definitely constituted forcing me out of TSP, especially with you and/or Glen (I never did know which one of you was doing it) changing the posting/viewing permissions in various parts of the forums to limit it to citizens only. Even if being locked out of politics, the legislature, elections, etc etc - quite literally, in that I could neither see nor post in 75% of those areas - wasn't enough, the fact that someone on the admin team was abusing their power by locking residents out of everywhere they could kinda made it even more the case.