Maybe a re-structuring of the legislator apps is in order? Like, breaking out our long thread but also providing things like "Political Groups to Join"?

I do think it would be a good idea to highlight parties in the application process. However, for that to be useful, parties need to really mean something. They can't just be platitudes. "We support democracy" "We believe in attracting new players" etc, aren't useful ideals for a party system. *Everybody* thinks these things. For a party to system to work, there have to be real differences and real disagreements. APC formed as a party of newer players opposed to the coup, many of whom felt they were being left out of the government. TIL formed as a party representing the core people targeted by Hileville's coup, and we've evolved into a party that's defender-leaning, opposes the dismantling of forum governance, and serves as a general opposition force to remnants of the independent-imperialist faction of TSP. (Before parties formally existed, we had two blocs: pro-defender and pro-Independent/imperialist. Our existing fault lines grew from that.) Ryccia's new party is single-interest, opposing Belschaft's agenda of increased RMB presence in government.

When parties were first created, the response was to set up an unserious party that was "pro-TSP" and to get everybody to join. If failed, predictably.

So if we're serious about encouraging new parties to form, we need to be serious about why parties *should* form. Parties need to represent an existing cleavage between players. A party that *everyone* would want to join is a party that stands for nothing real.

I'd like to write a guide to creating a political party. But I think Kris's point isn't so much that TSPers agree on most of everything. I think it's that the natural state of things is there *won't* be a lot of parties, because there aren't enough cleavages in our community to support that. There could exist a third party right now-- the unified remnants of the old Independent-imperialist bloc. But I genuinely don't see more than 3 parties forming naturally. APC/TIL overlap a lot as it is, and the only thing that's prevented us from merging in the past is a different leadership culture.

(This post was last modified: 02-08-2017, 09:35 AM by sandaoguo.)

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I would like to point out that although the FCP's main goal is to keep forum governance and authority (and yes, oppose Belschaft's agenda. Sorry Belschaft, I don't hate you, I hate your agenda!), when we get more members we'll flesh out the other details. Just waiting if this party can succeed, 'k?

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I would like to point out that although the FCP's main goal is to keep forum governance and authority (and yes, oppose Belschaft's agenda. Sorry Belschaft, I don't hate you, I hate your agenda!), when we get more members we'll flesh out the other details. Just waiting if this party can succeed, 'k?

Fwiw, I think Ryccia and I are pulling in opposite directions here. The party I suggested is suggested continued experimentation of onsite democracy — something two of the four "parties" are explicitly against (I'm not sure what the APC stance is).  

I get what Glen is saying and — like a lot of stuff — I don't think I fully made my point explicit. Really, my interest is in starting a newbie party with a couple old-timers that help for guidance; I've since clarified that somewhat.

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Lets just be real here for once.

You do not need to see a campaign to know that you support or oppose people. Not one of you condemning the agreement can sit there and say you have no opinion on others until you see a platform. We have literally elected people without platforms. Your own platform, DM, is "I don't have anything specific to say", leaving us all to use our own judgement of your character and capability to be our government's leader. (And if we want to discuss this even closer to reality, we can talk about how 90% of campaign promises never even come to fruition!)

That's a criticism that isn't founded in reality. Everybody here knows Roavin and they know that he's probably the most capable, reasonable, and responsible person in the region. It shouldn't be a surprise that many would be willing to support him on that alone.


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I don't argue this, I just question if we would like it to continue this way.
I understand that part of the reason we vote for candidates is based on their merit as an individual, but it is also based on their platform, even if the two don't weigh the same.

And we certainly shouldn't perpetuate that idea with Political Party deals like this.

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Lets just be real here for once.

You do not need to see a campaign to know that you support or oppose people. Not one of you condemning the agreement can sit there and say you have no opinion on others until you see a platform. We have literally elected people without platforms. Your own platform, DM, is "I don't have anything specific to say", leaving us all to use our own judgement of your character and capability to be our government's leader. (And if we want to discuss this even closer to reality, we can talk about how 90% of campaign promises never even come to fruition!)

That's a criticism that isn't founded in reality. Everybody here knows Roavin and they know that he's probably the most capable, reasonable, and responsible person in the region. It shouldn't be a surprise that many would be willing to support him on that alone.


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I don't argue this, I just question if we would like it to continue this way.
I understand that part of the reason we vote for candidates is based on their merit as an individual, but it is also based on their platform, even if the two don't weigh the same.

And we certainly shouldn't perpetuate that idea with Political Party deals like this.

DM, weren't you trying to put a party together at some point? What happened? I assume that you selected a group of people you either liked or were friends with and discussed it\proposed it to them in private. Maybe are still discussing it, putting together some sort of platform.

For so much of TSP history people have been doing that - meeting with friends in private IRC rooms\etc and making plans, cutting deals - deciding who to vote for and who to support and who to exlude and who to target.

I still don't think the party deal was wrong in itself. In fact, what I think the old guard seems to be upset about is that APC is transparent enough to be honest about it. Maybe they should have kept it all hidden and in the dark like the olden days?

I could and still can tell you, before the parties even existed, which players in the region are aligned and will vote which way. Unsurprisingly, I think anyone with an iota of sense and observation skills would be able to do the same.

It used to be the old guard were calling the shots, now it seems like anyone who can organize and create an appealing platform has a chance. Oh yeah the old guard also had an issue with players who used PMs to campaign...if they weren't on the same side. The issue about parties also seems to be about access.

My real questions to all the people with issues here are:
1. When in the past have you ever spoken out against politicking or actively done something about the backdoor politics situation? Especially when it comes to the disadvantages that newer player have?
2. When you have voted for a candidate that you aren't either friends with WHEN one of your own close friends was running or you didn't have some sort of political bartering involved?
3. Have you ever benefitted from someone voting for you simply because they were your friend and they couldn't care one iota less what your platform or merits were or even if there were any other warm bodies running?

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(This post was last modified: 02-08-2017, 07:32 PM by Escade.)

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I would like to point out that although the FCP's main goal is to keep forum governance and authority (and yes, oppose Belschaft's agenda. Sorry Belschaft, I don't hate you, I hate your agenda!), when we get more members we'll flesh out the other details. Just waiting if this party can succeed, 'k?

Fwiw, I think Ryccia and I are pulling in opposite directions here. The party I suggested is suggested continued experimentation of onsite democracy — something two of the four "parties" are explicitly against (I'm not sure what the APC stance is).  

I get what Glen is saying and — like a lot of stuff — I don't think I fully made my point explicit. Really, my interest is in starting a newbie party with a couple old-timers that help for guidance; I've since clarified that somewhat.

APC has nothing currently in their platform regarding this. We have been careful not to take a stance on this yet. Besides our thing is cooperation and if we take a hard line stance on it we kind of defeat the purpose of that idea of cooperation, because, and stop me if I'm wrong, that will be the issue that likely divides the parties.

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Also sorry for the double post but it appears as though Lazarus may vote on legislation regarding parties soon. So the eyes of the world are on us as we figure out exactly what parties will look like here. Just remember we are kind of venturing into uncharted territory and people are interested to see what happens.

Above all else, I hope to be a decent person.
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CoA: August 2016-January 2017
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Lets just be real here for once.

You do not need to see a campaign to know that you support or oppose people. Not one of you condemning the agreement can sit there and say you have no opinion on others until you see a platform. We have literally elected people without platforms. Your own platform, DM, is "I don't have anything specific to say", leaving us all to use our own judgement of your character and capability to be our government's leader. (And if we want to discuss this even closer to reality, we can talk about how 90% of campaign promises never even come to fruition!)

That's a criticism that isn't founded in reality. Everybody here knows Roavin and they know that he's probably the most capable, reasonable, and responsible person in the region. It shouldn't be a surprise that many would be willing to support him on that alone.


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I don't argue this, I just question if we would like it to continue this way.
I understand that part of the reason we vote for candidates is based on their merit as an individual, but it is also based on their platform, even if the two don't weigh the same.

And we certainly shouldn't perpetuate that idea with Political Party deals like this.

DM, weren't you trying to put a party together at some point? What happened? I assume that you selected a group of people you either liked or were friends with and discussed it\proposed it to them in private. Maybe are still discussing it, putting together some sort of platform.

For so much of TSP history people have been doing that - meeting with friends in private IRC rooms\etc and making plans, cutting deals - deciding who to vote for and who to support and who to exlude and who to target.

I still don't think the party deal was wrong in itself. In fact, what I think the old guard seems to be upset about is that APC is transparent enough to be honest about it. Maybe they should have kept it all hidden and in the dark like the olden days?

I could and still can tell you, before the parties even existed, which players in the region are aligned and will vote which way. Unsurprisingly, I think anyone with an iota of sense and observation skills would be able to do the same.

It used to be the old guard were calling the shots, now it seems like anyone who can organize and create an appealing platform has a chance.  Oh yeah the old guard also had an issue with players who used PMs to campaign...if they weren't on the same side. The issue about parties also seems to be about access.

My real questions to all the people with issues here are:
1. When in the past have you ever spoken out against politicking or actively done something about the backdoor politics situation? Especially when it comes to the disadvantages that newer player have?
2. When you have voted for a candidate that you aren't either friends with WHEN one of your own close friends was running or you didn't have some sort of political bartering involved?
3. Have you ever benefitted from someone voting for you simply because they were your friend and they couldn't care one iota less what your platform or merits were or even if there were any other warm bodies running?

Your comparing me having a private discussion about creating a political party with behind the scenes vote trading. Not only in a different ballpark, but a different game.

As discussed on Discord, not all people have or do backdoor dealings. Some people may do it, and openly admit to it, but it doesn't make it the right thing to do in my opinion. And I think your missing my point anyway. It's not about what we have done, it's about what we want to do going forward.
We've never had political parties written in the laws, but we do now. Do we want to restrict this type or behavior, or leave it be? I'm not saying we should do one or the other per se, just that we should discuss it.
And I don't want this discussion to start the "old guard" "new guard" argument like all other heated debates. But what we shouldn't do here is make it "join a party or die off", we should have a democratic system that allows both independent players and political parties to coexist, without everything one or the other does coming under fire.

Part of the reason the activity levels are low all the time, even in a region with thousands of members, is the hostility (or perceived hostility) on the forum. We don't want to create the perception that political parties are bad, or being independent of them is bad, because it will further drive people away from joining the forum.

Semi-Unretired

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If a majority of TSPers are in a party, it's just going to be more difficult for non-party people to get elected without a party endorsement. There's just no way around that. Not if we want to remain a real democracy.

A lot of this discussion is happening under the premise that the community is objectively better without parties. From where I stand, it's not. We're a community with serious and irreparable cleavages, stemming from coups, OBT, politicization of admins, etc., and the fact that there's never been and may never be any real retribution on any side for any of it.

So we have a powerful force driving people to join together-- deep distrust and dislike of another group that's numerous enough to gain political power. There's so much history to point to for why some people think there's an existential threat to others holding power.

Parties bring order to chaos. They turn friend groups into formal organizations that can recruit and provide new players with guidance and allies. When parties can strategize as cohesive blocs, it removes the high-stakes aspects of elections, making them less contentious and less prone to accusations of illegitimacy.

It's my opinion that TSP without parties would be substantially worse off. And I feel that I can say that with authority because, lets face it, a lot of the politics of TSP surrounds me and Belschaft and the people we surround ourselves with. TIL being able to strategize and, when necessary, ally with APC (or another party, in the future) gives me a real sense of security and makes me believe that elections are a bit less of a matter of whether or not I'm banned from TSP within the next 4 months.

But it's not just all that. TIL has increased the quality of our laws and the number of ideas floating around. Having members who weren't here for all the toxic history has done a lot of good, because they're given an equal voice and power in the power, which has led to compromises that never would have happened before. Parties can be like political incubators. While Bel decries TIL drafting laws ourselves and presenting them fully written to the Assembly, our in-house debates are more productive than Assembly debates. You can actually get work done when people don't hate each other! When new players get the opportunity to work with that, it improves all of TSP. And when you have a group that already supports your draft, you don't have to face the demoralizing prospect of it being utterly rejected out of hand, like what happens sometimes when individuals present laws in the Assembly alone.

We shouldn't be doing anything that has a chilling effect on political parties. If quid pro quo corruption actually happens, then yes let's discuss that. If actual election rigging happens, let's discuss it. But neither happened here, and neither happens just because parties account for a large portion of voters and ally in an election.


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Actually DM, I don't think there is a much of a difference between trying to create a party behind the scenes and the thought process that goes behind that and actually having a public party that makes decisions.  Your party if and when it comes into existence will most likely have a platform and goals. If one of the members of the party run for a position, it will be encouraged but not enforced that party members support their fellow. Maybe critique behind doors but not publically.

My question is the same from our private discussion (not withstanding that I can point to where you or the people liking your posts will be at politically in the majority of situations) is the same:
1. What are your proposing, if anything, in terms of parties?
2. If a group of people, a majority, choose to make a decision about a candidate - do they have the right?
3. Why should a group of people looking to work together be penalized over allegedly independent individuals?  Is the alledged "individual" with apparently no biases worth more than a concentrated group of players with similar interests?

To reiterate, we have parties - it is something that seems new but most of real life history and governments include parties - so again...what are the actual concerns and goals in this discussion?

People don't want to go on the forums because people argue? Ummm...wait was there ever a time that I approached a whole group of CSS players including yourself and Rebel about bullying in the Assembly?  Wait, let me remember what I was told at the time? "This is politics, honey. Learn to deal with it."

And here let me throw it out there for all of you - What have you done about the disgusting and constant attempt by Belschaft to purge the reason of people he doesn't like ?  What has our region as a whole done about that? What protections are in place? What have you done about attempts to shaft Kris and Glenn recently through banjections and smear campaigns and other toxic behavior? Have you done anything? What has this region done to actually make it seem like a terrible thing to try to get rid of people...not because they are pedophiles or threats...but for political reasons and "I don't like so and so because they didn't get down on one knee for me?" 

What have you done? When have you spoken out? What protections are in place for these people who as independents or as individuals are constantly facing persecution?

There's a reason people like me have trouble listening to certain people in this region - I've seen them stand silent again and again when they could have done the right thing.

Now you attack the one way I see people have to protect themselves from the bullies with their little circle of friends, who like any entourage, supports the negative and destructive behavior. 

Escade

~ Positions Held in TSP ~
Delegate | Vice Delegate 
Minister of Regional Affairs, | Minister of Foreign Affairs | Minister of Military Affairs
~ The Sparkly One ~

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(This post was last modified: 02-09-2017, 07:41 PM by Escade.)

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