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***sandaoguo*** · 03-12-2017, 01:02 PM

You sent a single thing to the CRS -- an irrelevant conversation with Rach -- after a discussion with Kris in which it was clear that we were looking into your relationship with Empire members. You keep exaggerating this point.

In no version of reality do you send a non-security related Discord log with Rach (after the treaty was repealed, too) -- because you were doing your "best to cooperate with [the CRS] and send them stuff I come across that I think they should have" -- but *not* send the CRS your Discord chat with NK in which you offer to work for Empire+Osiris interests. What's more likely is that you didn't think NK would post those logs on pastebin, and so you didn't think anybody had them in the first place. So you weren't concerned about the probability that anybody would find out about the offer.

(This post was last modified: 03-12-2017, 01:03 PM by sandaoguo.)

**Belschaft** · 03-12-2017, 01:14 PM

(03-12-2017, 01:02 PM)sandaoguo Wrote: You sent a single thing to the CRS -- an irrelevant conversation with Rach -- after a discussion with Kris in which it was clear that we were looking into your relationship with Empire members. You keep exaggerating this point.

In no version of reality do you send a non-security related Discord log with Rach (after the treaty was repealed, too) -- because you were doing your "best to cooperate with [the CRS] and send them stuff I come across that I think they should have" -- but *not* send the CRS your Discord chat with NK in which you offer to work for Empire+Osiris interests.

That is not the only thing I have passed on; if people I've given stuff to have never felt it of note, that's not my fault. At the same time, I don't claim to have much of anything of interest to the CRS, nor do I claim to be making regular reports - I'm not engaged in any intelligence gathering, because it's been made clear that the CRS doesn't want me doing that. Considering that I'm not seeking anything to report, the fact that I do have something to report now and again is relevant. You're also ignoring the fact that I reported Milograd to the CRS as soon as I became aware of him being in TSP, and that the CRS acted on that report. You can argue about the extent that I've been "cooperating" with the CRS, but considering it's never contacted me or asked me for anything - and that I have no duty to send it anything - I can hardly be faulted for not sending it "enough" stuff.

Further, I must once again make it clear that Kris did not inform me that the CRS was investigating my conversations with NK - had he done so and asked me to provide information then I would have been happy to do so. Looking back at the conversation I can see how he might have been "hinting" at that, but at no point did he say so or ask me for anything. Doing so is really easy and the CRS didn't.

Should I have reported my conversation with NK? I didn't think so. The CRS clearly thinks I should have. I will defer to the CRS on this matter, as I would have done so if they had asked me to provide my logs.

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~~Cormac~~ · 03-12-2017, 01:29 PM

(03-12-2017, 01:02 PM)sandaoguo Wrote: What's more likely is that you didn't think NK would post those logs on pastebin, and so you didn't think anybody had them in the first place. So you weren't concerned about the probability that anybody would find out about the offer.

This can't be highlighted enough. There was no reason for Belschaft to believe the CRS would ever obtain actual logs of his conversations with NK, only possibly whispers and rumors about conversations between him and NK that might leak from Osiris' cabinet, for example. Informing the CRS he had communicated with NK and offering to show them logs was meaningless covering of his tracks, because he had every reason to believe if they actually took him up on that offer he could have given them edited logs and they would have been none the wiser. He had absolutely no reason to believe they would ever obtain the real logs; that was a fluke owed entirely to NK's incompetence in using Pastebin.

The bottom line is Bel didn't give the CRS these logs. It just takes one look at the logs to see that, if he had really been looking out for TSP's security by asking NK leading questions, he definitely would have told the CRS about NK trying to get him to spy on TSP and work against anti-Osiris/Empire sentiment. That he didn't, and that he actively told the CRS there was nothing relevant in their conversation, completely undermines the defense he is offering here. He has said again and again that the conversation was just "NK being NK." Yes, and that is why NK, as a member of Empire, is an enemy of the state. Precisely because spying and subverting GCRs is just "NK being NK." And it was something that should have been reported to the CRS.

**Belschaft** · 03-12-2017, 01:43 PM

(03-12-2017, 01:29 PM)Cormac Wrote:
(03-12-2017, 01:02 PM)sandaoguo Wrote: What's more likely is that you didn't think NK would post those logs on pastebin, and so you didn't think anybody had them in the first place. So you weren't concerned about the probability that anybody would find out about the offer.

This can't be highlighted enough. There was no reason for Belschaft to believe the CRS would ever obtain actual logs of his conversations with NK, only possibly whispers and rumors about conversations between him and NK that might leak from Osiris' cabinet, for example. Informing the CRS he had communicated with NK and offering to show them logs was meaningless covering of his tracks, because he had every reason to believe if they actually took him up on that offer he could have given them edited logs and they would have been none the wiser. He had absolutely no reason to believe they would ever obtain the real logs; that was a fluke owed entirely to NK's incompetence in using Pastebin.

The bottom line is Bel didn't give the CRS these logs. It just takes one look at the logs to see that, if he had really been looking out for TSP's security by asking NK leading questions, he definitely would have told the CRS about NK trying to get him to spy on TSP and work against anti-Osiris/Empire sentiment. That he didn't, and that he actively told the CRS there was nothing relevant in their conversation, completely undermines the defense he is offering here. He has said again and again that the conversation was just "NK being NK." Yes, and that is why NK, as a member of Empire, is an enemy of the state. Precisely because spying and subverting GCRs is just "NK being NK." And it was something that should have been reported to the CRS.

And once the CRS had acquired these logs - which everyone is acknowledging I didn't know they had - it would have been really easy to ask me to provide a copy of my conversations with NK, and seen if they matched. This was the obvious test of whether or not I was hiding something.

No one is disputing that I didn't give the CRS these logs; what you need to stop ignoring is that the CRS didn't ask me for these logs. If I wanted to hide my communications with NK from the CRS, why would I tell CRS members about them? I don't know the timeline here, so I don't know if the CRS had the extract before or after the topic came up with Kris and I sought Tsu's second opinion - but I cannot provide the CRS something if I don't know it wants it.

Cooperation works two ways; I seem to be getting criticism here for sending some stuff to the CRS but not this, more than I would be had I not sent them anything. I am trying to be as open, transparent and cooperative as possible here, but if there's something specific people want try asking me for it.

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***Kris Kringle*** · 03-12-2017, 02:03 PM

I want to avoid this discussion as much as possible, but since it was mentioned:

In my PM conversation with Belschaft, I explicitly suggested that he inform the CSS of his conversations with NK and that he collaborate with any questions we might have. I also explicitly said that, should we find out about his discussion, or its contents, through other means, it would look like he withheld that information, and we might not be so lenient towards him.

I also pointed out that, even if the conversations themselves were innocent and non-political, it was best to let the CSS know that they had happened, so we would know that, and not assume that he was having inappropriate contact with a member of a prohibited organisation.

There was advice to come clean, to volunteer the information and work with the CSS, so any misunderstandings could be avoided.

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**Belschaft** · 03-12-2017, 02:35 PM

Yes you did Kris, and I said that I didn't think there was anything relevant in the conversations that was worth disclosing, we went back and forth on the topic, and I then went to Tsu for a second opinion. At the end of it, I didn't volunteer the logs and the CRS didn't ask for them. But I think it's fairly clear that I wasn't trying to hide that I was talking to NK considering I freely volunteered that information. If I was trying to hide the fact that I'd been talking to NK, why would I reveal that information? By telling you and Tsu about them I put myself in a situation where the CRS knew I was talking to NK and thus could potentially investigate the matter or ask me for the details. Forgive me for making the assumption that, absent the CRS contacting me about the matter, the CRS did not want further information from me.

Now, I understand why there is a debate about whether or not I should have volunteered the logs despite not thinking there was anything relevant in them, but at the same time it must be acknowledged that I told members of the CRS that I was talking to NK and the CRS didn't ask me to provide them. I think there can be fair criticism in regards to me making a wrong decision on whether or not they were relevant - it's clear the CRS thinks they were, and I accept that conclusion - but I strongly dispute the suggestion that I was being secretive and hiding things. I considered your advice, which is why I sought a second opinion from Tsu. I do not think I can be reasonably blamed for not disclosing something to the CRS that they did not ask me disclose.

I have been trying to be as open and transparent as possible. If the CRS wants something from me, ask me for it. This is the main part of the matter that is perplexing to me - considering that I had indicated my willingness to cooperate with the CRS and provide it with information, why on earth didn't you guys just ask me for what you wanted? If the CRS had asked me to disclose my logs and I'd refused or provided an edited transcript this would be an entirely different matter

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**Belschaft** · 03-12-2017, 02:49 PM

As an addendum, the following are the extent of my private conversations with NeeNee and Dali;

NeeNee

Dali

One conversation with each, both at their initiation. My conversation with Nee relates to masking on Osiris' discord server, my conversation with Dali relates to the MoFA election I think; based on the context, that seems to be the case and I can't remember any additional details.

I have no idea if the CRS wants to see these or not as they haven't told me what they want or expect, but considering this thread I'm assuming that any conversation with an Empire member should be reported? Is this a general rule, or something specific to me?

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(This post was last modified: 03-12-2017, 02:50 PM by Belschaft.)

***Tsunamy*** · 03-12-2017, 05:11 PM

Bel — can you just address this point?

Quote:
Belschaft, unprompted by Neo Kervoskia, asked if he would like him to "do anything" in TSP, and to act as a back channel for Osiris. Neo Kervoskia responded that he would like Belschaft to inform him of anything that would be detrimental to Osiris, either rumors or more serious threats. To this, Belschaft responded that he will work to discourage anti-Osiris and anti-Empire thinking in TSP.

What's the definition of "anything" and/or what was your end goal?

Did you know that Osiris was eyeing the region?

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**Belschaft** · 03-12-2017, 05:22 PM

(03-12-2017, 05:11 PM)Tsunamy Wrote: Bel — can you just address this point?

Quote:
Belschaft, unprompted by Neo Kervoskia, asked if he would like him to "do anything" in TSP, and to act as a back channel for Osiris. Neo Kervoskia responded that he would like Belschaft to inform him of anything that would be detrimental to Osiris, either rumors or more serious threats. To this, Belschaft responded that he will work to discourage anti-Osiris and anti-Empire thinking in TSP.

What's the definition of "anything" and/or what was your end goal?

Did you know that Osiris was eyeing the region?

I didn't know anything; I'd just had an unsolicited contact from the new Delegate/Dictator of Osiris, NK, who I know both by reputation and from working with him in the past when TSP and Osiris were allied. I figured that he wanted something from me and I was interested in finding out what it was. Only an idiot would assume that NK was just saying hello, and anyone who's spent more than a few months in NSGP should know that Empire members will always be "eyeing" GCR regions.

In that situation, trying to find out more seemed to be the logical course of action, and leaving the conversation sufficiently open to further contact in the future. My expectation was that at some point NK would ask or request something specific that would be useful to know, but obviously that won't happen now; considering the extremely vague and general nature of his response, I honestly didn't see any point in reporting it.

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**Belschaft** · 03-13-2017, 04:30 PM

As I mentioned on Discord, I am more than willing to give members of the CRS access to my various accounts (Discord, for example) if they wish to search through themselves. I continue to await any kind of direction or communication from the CRS as to what kind of evidence they are seeking or what cooperation they require from me.

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