What I'm disagreeing with is the provision to allow existing regions to join. I don't think it's proper for TSP to have what would be, whatever term is ultimately used, colonies. It's one thing, and an entirely reasonable one, to create regions like Knowhere, but it's quite another to incorporate regions that have their own communities, laws and cultures. It's the latter that I dislike.

Okay, but why?

I also had a bunch to reply to the other items, but as it turns out Seraph basically answered what I would have said, and much more eloquently to boot, so I'm just going to echo Seraph on all of the above.

(This post was last modified: 03-25-2017, 09:12 PM by Roavin.)

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Because I believe that a region is its strongest when it allocates a majority of its resources towards the internal development of its culture. TSP is its strongest when we come together not against a common enemy or when we let foreign entanglements drive our course, but when we unite to develop our focus as a cultural, party-themed region, and when we develop our government and governance under that premise.

When the discussion focuses on how we can better develop our culture at home, the implication is we can always improve, that there are always better ideas to be proposed, better festivals to organise, better roleplays to be written, and overall better things to do. When we start saying we should expand our reach, not in terms of alliances or cultural exchange, but in terms of effective control, the implication is we already are good enough, and now we have to show other regions how to do it.

I don't like that, because I think it's (undoubtedly unintentionally) arrogant, and it places the onus on making the foreign expansion project succeed, rather than making our own regional culture thrive. I realise others think differently, that others think we can handle both goals and that one would inherently benefit the other. I see where they are coming from, but based on my own experience, I just can't help but feel that TSP works best when it functions as a cultural region, rather than as a gameplayer one.

So this isn't meant to antagonise or disrespect anyone. I'm not here because I want to fight or be a contrarian. I don't think there was any ill intention with that particular provision of this bill, nor do I think Seraph is some kind of evil mastermind seeking for make TSP an imperialist region. If I'm posting my disagreement with the idea of colonies, it's simply because we have a disagreement on this particular issue and because I genuinely believe that colonies are the wrong course of action for TSP.

Former Delegate of the South Pacific
Posts outside High Court venues should be taken as those of any other legislator.
I do not participate in the regional server, but I am happy to talk through instant messaging or on the forum.

Legal Resources:
THE MATT-DUCK Law Archive | Mavenu Diplomatic Archive | Rules of the High Court | Case Submission System | Online Rulings Consultation System

(This post was last modified: 03-25-2017, 10:24 PM by Kris Kringle.)

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I once again broadly agree with the additional points Kris has made in regard to allowing existing regions with existing communities to become colonies.

I'm also going to restate, because I think it's been overlooked, that regions like Knowhere and Versailles Isle are regions founded for specific purposes. They exist to meet specific needs of the South Pacific. They should not have (permanent) residents, they should not have local governments, they should not be colonies. Those regions exist to be, respectively, an outlet for RMB spam and a jump point for the SPSF, and not for any other purpose. Turning them into colonies and giving them residents and local governments is just likely to undermine their actual purposes for existing. What regional population is going to want to deal with our RMB spam or host a constant staging ground for defenses and raids? Giving Knowhere and Versailles Isles residents and local governments is just likely to make their residents start demanding we stop using those regions for the purposes they were created to fulfill in the first place.

Simple legislation to regulate how the Founder nations of regions like Knowhere and Versailles Isle should be administered, and other very basic issues like mandating an embassy with the South Pacific, a link to our forum in the WFE, etc., would be adequate. We don't need to turn these regions into colonies.

(This post was last modified: 03-26-2017, 07:57 AM by Cormac.)

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:dodgy: ... Kris, all your points have either been addressed or are a misrepresentation of what's being presented (and at this point I firmly believe it's deliberate). Sophistry at its finest. I'll address your points here and would encourage you to actually back up your claims.

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Because I believe that a region is its strongest when it allocates a majority of its resources towards the internal development of its culture.

This is already addressed by:

As for the internal/external development issue: for me this is internal development. A major part of my vision is to provide more GP opportunities for players at all levels and all that's really expanding is the in-game space and resources we have available to us in order to help us do that.  

I really don't need to say more on that.

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TSP is its strongest when we come together not against a common enemy or when we let foreign entanglements drive our course, but when we unite to develop our focus as a cultural, party-themed region, and when we develop our government and governance under that premise.

Misrepresentation. Who ever said anything about foreign entanglements? About some enemy? This is about our culture, and it has been said from the very beginning - not just by Seraph, but also in my discussion thread a few weeks back that you similarly replied to with gross misrepresentations.

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When the discussion focuses on how we can better develop our culture at home, the implication is we can always improve, that there are always better ideas to be proposed, better festivals to organise, better roleplays to be written, and overall better things to do.

Agreed.

When we start saying we should expand our reach, not in terms of alliances or cultural exchange, but in terms of effective control, the implication is we already are good enough, and now we have to show other regions how to do it.

And once again, a gross misrepresentation.

First, it's not about control, it's about (as Seraph said) adding rooms to the mansion. Nobody ever said anything about control, this is you wilfully interpreting that into what's being said. Of course there will be certain control structures, but that's inherent to what we're doing and I'd hope you're not actually arguing against abolishing our entire Charter and its checks and balances.

Second, how does it imply that in any way? We're a pretty self-conscious region for the most part. We recognize things we do well, we try to work on things we don't do well. If we were perfect, we wouldn't need elections with candidates offering their vision for improvement.

I don't like that, because I think it's (undoubtedly unintentionally) arrogant,

:dodgy:

and it places the onus on making the foreign expansion project succeed, rather than making our own regional culture thrive.

Beautiful sophistry once again. "Foreign expansion project" - again, it's not about that, and you're once again deliberately deceiving your fellow legislators because you don't like this legislation.

Again, it's about culture. This is about culture. The point behind this is to ultimately enhance our regional culture. Have I said it enough now? Finally?

It's not about scary foreign expansion efforts that, as you're implying, has TSP going out and subjugating other regions. That GOES AGAINST THE VERY CULTURE OF OUR REGION. As Seraph has already said, we don't even need to have existing regions joining or what have you, which completely destroys the very argument you're trying to make here. Is it foreign expansion if we create the region ourselves? Of course it's not. QED.

I realise others think differently, that others think we can handle both goals and that one would inherently benefit the other. I see where they are coming from, but based on my own experience, I just can't help but feel that TSP works best when it functions as a cultural region, rather than as a gameplayer one.

Again, it's about culture. This is about culture. The point behind this is to ultimately enhance our regional culture. Have I said it enough now? Finally?

On the gameplayer point - we're a feeder. Feeders are valuable and sought-after real estate in this game, and therefore there will always be GP aspects to our region no matter what for this very reason. But I don't see that in any way contrary to cultural aspects, and I find it ignorant to claim this is the case (from a former Delegate, even). In fact I agree to cultural supremacy here, and I would argue that it's our culture that informs our GP. Culturally, we're party isolationists with lampshades that value democracy and open debate; in turn, GP-wise, we are an unaligned region with few entanglements and small-"d" defender leaning principles. The culture informs the GP view.

So this isn't meant to antagonise or disrespect anyone.

I find your deliberate misrepresentations disrespectful towards your fellow legislators. I'm all for effective rhetoric but only if there's merit behind it.

I'm not here because I want to fight or be a contrarian. I don't think there was any ill intention with that particular provision of this bill, nor do I think Seraph is some kind of evil mastermind seeking for make TSP an imperialist region. If I'm posting my disagreement with the idea of colonies, it's simply because we have a disagreement on this particular issue and because I genuinely believe that colonies are the wrong course of action for TSP.

That's fair enough, but then let's please discuss it on its merits and not solely based on dropping scary words and phrases like "foreign expansion", "imperialism", etc., that will rightly scare off the less involved reader because it's counter to our culture.

TL;DR: If you're going to argue this way, then we'll have to continuously call you out for sophistry.

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Roavin, I think both you and Seraph are underestimating the degree to which focusing on colonies is going to distract attention away from the South Pacific and its community and culture and toward these colonies. People have finite time and energy. If they're spending it there, they're not spending it here. This is the same fundamental problem that has always existed with interregional organizations.

You also have once again not addressed the issue that giving residents and local governments to regions like Knowhere and Versailles Isle is likely to undermine the purposes they exist to fulfill in the first place. Do you think once Knowhere has a regional population of its own, they're going to want our constant RMB spam? Why would they? They're going to want their RMB for themselves and their purposes, not our spam.

(This post was last modified: 03-26-2017, 08:07 AM by Cormac.)

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Roavin, I think both you and Seraph are underestimating the degree to which focusing on colonies is going to distract attention away from the South Pacific and its community and culture and toward these colonies. People have finite time and energy. If they're spending it there, they're not spending it here. This is the same fundamental problem that has always existed with interregional organizations.

You also have once again not addressed the issue that giving residents and local governments to regions like Knowhere and Versailles Isle is likely to undermine the purposes they exist to fulfill in the first place. Do you think once Knowhere has a regional population of its own, they're going to want our constant RMB spam? Why would they? They're going to want their RMB for themselves and their purposes, not our spam.

The idea is that there will be here. This is about expanding space and resources and opportunities on the gameside, whilst also encouraging more people, especially legislators onto the forums.

Founder of the Church of the South Pacific [Forum Thread] [Discord], a safe place to discuss spirituality for people of all faiths and none (currently looking for those interested in prayer and/or "home" groups);
And The Silicon Pens [Discord], a writer's group for the South Pacific and beyond!

Yahweo usenneo ir varleo, ihraneo jurlaweo hraseu seu, ir jiweveo arladi.

Salma 145:8

translate

The LORD is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in love.
Psalm 145: 8

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Roavin, I think both you and Seraph are underestimating the degree to which focusing on colonies is going to distract attention away from the South Pacific and its community and culture and toward these colonies. People have finite time and energy. If they're spending it there, they're not spending it here. This is the same fundamental problem that has always existed with interregional organizations.

See what Seraph wrote. To give a concrete example, they wouldn't have their own forum, but rather be using the collective forum right here, not just for assembly stuff, but also for festivals, spam games, canon and non-canon RP, etc. - the cultural aspects!

You also have once again not addressed the issue that giving residents and local governments to regions like Knowhere and Versailles Isle is likely to undermine the purposes they exist to fulfill in the first place. Do you think once Knowhere has a regional population of its own, they're going to want our constant RMB spam? Why would they? They're going to want their RMB for themselves and their purposes, not our spam.

You posted while I was replying to Kris and missed your reply buuut - that was already addressed by Seraph as well!

The existence of separate colonial/regional contacts could also be made to ensure regions which don't require local government or, indeed, require a lack of it, have that restriction in place.

Obviously, we agree that having natives for Knowhere or Versailles Isle would be absurd, and the contract would state that this is so.

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The idea is that there will be here. This is about expanding space and resources and opportunities on the gameside, whilst also encouraging more people, especially legislators onto the forums.

You're going to have to walk me through a few things that we seem to be expected to take for granted.

1. What benefit does "expanding space" in user-created regions provide?
2. What resources would user-created regions we create afford us that we don't already have?
3. What opportunities would this create that would not exist here?

I'm also wondering if you're ever going to address the concerns I've repeatedly raised that planting residents and local governments in regions like Knowhere and Versailles Isle will undermine their purposes for existence.

Roavin, I think both you and Seraph are underestimating the degree to which focusing on colonies is going to distract attention away from the South Pacific and its community and culture and toward these colonies. People have finite time and energy. If they're spending it there, they're not spending it here. This is the same fundamental problem that has always existed with interregional organizations.

See what Seraph wrote. To give a concrete example, they wouldn't have their own forum, but rather be using the collective forum right here, not just for assembly stuff, but also for festivals, spam games, canon and non-canon RP, etc. - the cultural aspects!

You also have once again not addressed the issue that giving residents and local governments to regions like Knowhere and Versailles Isle is likely to undermine the purposes they exist to fulfill in the first place. Do you think once Knowhere has a regional population of its own, they're going to want our constant RMB spam? Why would they? They're going to want their RMB for themselves and their purposes, not our spam.

You posted while I was replying to Kris and missed your reply buuut - that was already addressed by Seraph as well!

The existence of separate colonial/regional contacts could also be made to ensure regions which don't require local government or, indeed, require a lack of it, have that restriction in place.

Obviously, we agree that having natives for Knowhere or Versailles Isle would be absurd, and the contract would state that this is so.

Who even are "they," these people who will be using TSP's forum, if Knowhere and Versailles Isle aren't going to have residents? I would suggest you re-read the legislation as drafted, because it takes for granted that those regions will have residents and that those residents will have rights.

(This post was last modified: 03-26-2017, 09:27 AM by Cormac.)

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There must be something really wrong with it in that I find myself agreeing with people I usually disagree with. One of the flaws that hasn't been addressed that I see is that the SPSF is no where near big enough to be able to support and "colonies" should there be issues in them. The more colonies you add, the worse t becomes. The SPSF and CRS is marginal for protecting even TSP.

There is still plenty of things to focus on within TSP that should be addressed and fixed first before we start dragging other regions in. Getting the LC defined and functional would actually provide a template for governing colonies.

Real-life Girls

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-snip-

I won't address the entirety of your post, but some points I do want to address:

1. Me saying we should focus on internal development isn't in any way countered by Seraph saying he sees this as internal development. Obviously he does. My whole point is that it actually isn't.
2. Ultimately, I just don't see this as a culture thing. Sure, it involves sharing and expanding our culture, but that right there is the problem. I don't believe any region has a right to expand its culture to others, not even the South Pacific. It's one thing to share cultural experiences as equals (which we should do), it's quite another to have regions subordinated to us as colonies (which some provisions of this bill would do).
3. If you propose something that is in essence imperialistic, then it has to be called imperialistic.
4. I'm not blind or stupid, I know Seraph said the join provision could be removed. Great! I keep responding because you asked "why".
5. Why am I agreeing so much with Cormac and QuietDad? Are we in the Twilight Zone? O.O
6. Time for me to go out and enjoy the day.

Former Delegate of the South Pacific
Posts outside High Court venues should be taken as those of any other legislator.
I do not participate in the regional server, but I am happy to talk through instant messaging or on the forum.

Legal Resources:
THE MATT-DUCK Law Archive | Mavenu Diplomatic Archive | Rules of the High Court | Case Submission System | Online Rulings Consultation System

(This post was last modified: 03-26-2017, 12:49 PM by Kris Kringle.)

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