| [DRAFT] Amendment to Article 3 of the Elections Act |
I'm with Tim here. Allowing the delegate to hold another position outside of TSP is asking for trouble. But outside that, why would allowing someone to be a citizen or even as simple as having a puppet in another region be a threat to TSP? Kinda silly, if you ask me.
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"...if you're normal, the crowd will accept you. But if you're deranged, the crowd will make you their leader." - Christopher Titus
Deranged in NS since 2011 One and ONLY minion of LadyRebels The OUTRAGEOUS CRAZY other half of LadyElysium
(07-15-2018, 04:17 PM)Rebeltopia Wrote: I'm with Tim here. Allowing the delegate to hold another position outside of TSP is asking for trouble. But outside that, why would allowing someone to be a citizen or even as simple as having a puppet in another region be a threat to TSP? Kinda silly, if you ask me. That's an easy to argument to make against the idea, but it's not actually what anybody is envisioning. People keep trotting out this argument as a smokescreen to serious conflict of interest issues. As it is currently, we can have a Delegate that is heavily involved in the politics of other regions, with no checks on it at all. We can find ourselves in a situation where the Delegate is splitting their loyalties between competing interests. For example, take this scenario: Another region our Delegate is involved in is debating a treaty with a region hostile to TSP. TSP's interests would be clearly served by the treaty failing, while the other people in the region will view a vote against the treaty as our Delegate voting on behalf of TSP.
That is a powder-keg situation, and it shows the flaws of trying to hold power and influence in multiple regions. If our Delegate votes on behalf of TSP's interests, then we are thrust into a conflict with that region, and there's an NSGP scandal about how TSP's Delegate is corrupt. If our Delegate votes against TSP's interests, then why are they our Delegate? They're supposed to be looking out for our interests. The simplest solution is to prevent the situation from ever being possible in the first place. Our past few Delegates (Tsu, Drugged Monkeys, Seraph) haven't had significant activity in other regions or organizations. That should be our model future Delegates need to follow. It's the best way to avoid crises or scandals, avoid the need to recall a Delegate that ends up serving foreign interests, and avoid a damning PR nightmare in NSGP. For the record, I believe this logic applies to the Cabinet, as well. Individuals may feel they're capable of handling their foreign COIs, but the safest thing for the region as a whole is to prevent those COIs in the first place.
Its only a smokescreen if you don't think the arguement is valid.
I think it's quite valid. While I actually understand your concern, I think it's going a bit too far to say having an active nation in a region outside of TSP is a huge CoI. Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
"...if you're normal, the crowd will accept you. But if you're deranged, the crowd will make you their leader." - Christopher Titus
Deranged in NS since 2011 One and ONLY minion of LadyRebels The OUTRAGEOUS CRAZY other half of LadyElysium
We actually did have a "situation" here awhile back where a citizen here and delegate elsewhere used his access to the assembly posts to get info to use against TSP during negotiations. If you want to be Delegate of TSP, you should bleed TSP personally, but being in the game as long as I've been, I know a lot of people who can handle multiple citizenships.
It's all about transparancy and the cards on the table before they become delegate. I think we'd be better served with the Security Council getting more involved in vwetting and publicly validating CoIs
(07-15-2018, 05:02 PM)Rebeltopia Wrote: Its only a smokescreen if you don't think the arguement is valid. It's a smokescreen because it's being used to dismiss the whole idea that COIs should be more rigorously regulated at all. There are ways to narrow a law like this. But, as was argued on Discord by opponents of this proposal, if we have to include exceptions, then there's no point having the law at all. If the scenario I posed is something that's actually a worrying problem, then there's merit to crafting a law to prevent it, isn't there?
As brought up in the Legislator's Lounge, this should apply to all government positions instead of just delegate. If the concern is genuine than no member of government should have held a position in any region or organization for at least X months before they try in TSP.
Otherwise, if the concern is delegate couping then we an solve that by making Tsunamy a perma-delegate. Escade ~ Positions Held in TSP ~ Delegate | Vice Delegate Minister of Regional Affairs, | Minister of Foreign Affairs | Minister of Military Affairs ~ The Sparkly One ~ My Pinterest
I wish I could support your Amendment, however, there are MILD but VERY IMPORTANT problems you should to resolve first.
Argument 1: I have 1000s of nations as jump point founders.... And Defenders like to own 100s of sleeper nations in various vulnerable regions to better protect them. ^These are R/D arguments. So you should allow *residency.* --- Argument 2: Btw, on NS, it's sad that if you are TSP del, you’d have to give up all membership in other regions. Could we allow the delegate to keep the memberships, but resign all government positions? That'd be better. Sometimes the Delegate wants to take a one week break from TSPing and hang out in other regions as a citizen; taking a breather. As a person experienced with being a Delegate, there are many times that I go over to other regions to work in the ministries to take a break from my *own people* (You get tired of seeing them after seeing them everyday for 4 months straight on discord and want to do regional work with new faces sometimes xD ) Thanks for reading my opinion! (I don't really mind that much about Argument 2, because it can be argued against by saying "it's a necessary sacrifice" but I think argument 1 would make the process easier for all of us. I don't think the Delegate would want to move 1000 jump point nations back to TSP, that's just too extremist ? If they're a R/Der )
I'm with Tim and Rebs here. Resigning their position? Certainly. Citizenship? No way! This is a step towards francoism (not that it's a bad thing, necessarily) I agree that TSP should bebtheir home and their heart, but prohibiting Delegates' citizenship in other regions would eventually maybe over a long period of time lead to GP isolastionism.
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Minister of Culture of the South Pacific // Former Prime Minister
I can see both sides of this discussion, and in not really sure where I fall on it. Therefore I've been humming and haing about this.
I think we all generally agree if you're TSP delegate you probably shouldn't be (for example) head of the Army elsewhere. It's a clear conflict and must be avoided. The main discussion comes down to citizenship. Given that citizenship is applied for in many other regions (whereas it's simply given in TSP), means by my reading of the proposal (and ryccia's comments) it would have to be relinquished if someone were to become delgate. Seraph/Erinor says he holds citizenship elsewhere, assuming he had had this throughout his delegacy and (as far as I know) it didn't effect his tenure as delegate, I don't see, in an NS sense, having citizenship as being a detrimental conflict of interest in this instance. I guess it's what you do with it that counts? (And Why anyone would want to spend time outside of TSP is beyond me, but I'm sure you all have your reasons!!!) I also clearly see the point of sand, however, in that you wouldn't normally expect an irl politician to live outside his region of influence, but to counter point this people may have puppet regions or nations for RP, RandD or other reasons which would fall out of TSP 'jurisdicition'. As it is generally a temporary position, i.e. we don't have delegates for life, is it such an imposition on candidates/delegates/ministers to avoid that conflict? Probably not in most cases, but Yuno suggests it's about having a break from the same people all the time and maybe this can be evidenced here in TSP recently? :nods: Perhaps a different wording might help move this along. I'm not sure if this is any better but.... (5) Any candidate for the Delegacy must, prior to the second round of voting, withdraw from any position of power in any other region where there is an actual or perceived conflict of interest. This would allow the likes of Escade, who was knocked out at the first round of voting this time to retain her outside interests and not have to withdraw from everything just to run; but would have required her to do so for the second round where there was a greater likelihood of success. (Sorry for using you as an example Escade, I didn't want to use one of our finalists). Or Roavin to retain R/D areas, if he ran. It would also allow, for example, someone to progress in a region like AO or Esportiva which have no interest other than their own particular RP. It should also allow for potential delegate candidates to be quizzed on outside interests without necessarily limiting the ability to hold other puppets elsewhere and allow for claims of conflict of interest to be considered on merit by the courts. The postions of others read as being so entrenched there may be noway forward or this might be a case of pleasing nobody.
I have a similar opinion to that of Tim's and Rebeltopia's: the Delegate, of course, should be in the interests of TSP only and should not have any positions of power elsewhere, but simply having a nation in somewhere like the Erviadus Galaxy (basically 100% RP there) could be allowed.
Here is my proposal: (5) Upon the determination of the results of the second round of voting for the Office of the Delegate, the winning candidate of the said election shall resign all positions of power they have in other regions, excluding citizenship. The winning candidate may retain positions of power in minor regions; however, it must be stated in the forums and in the South Pacific RMB. This is a bit long and I do believe it needs some streamlining, but it looks good to me. The Sakhalinsk Empire, Legislator of the South Pacific
Currently a citizen and legislator of TSP. I am active as Sverigesriket in Europe. Complete Conflict of Interest |
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