Does it really matter? I mean -- at this point the TNI already repealed the treaty. So ... it's not like we're going to be able to go back on it ...

I know I am late to this, but I would like to say it does matter. The South Pacific has lost a long standing ally due to careless Foreign Affairs. I think it is very important to be critical of this. A strong foreign affairs department's goal should be to strengthen TSP's ties with allies and create new ones.

The people who advocated the hardest for this treaty have had a problem with TNI for reasons that have nothing to do with TNI and TSP's relationship. They knew it was aggressive, and actually prefer not having TNI as an ally. They presented the treaty as strengthen our independent position and not involve us in the TNI-TRR conflict. Both of these are obviously untrue. An honest account of the potential dangers of this treaty was not presented honestly to the region.

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Does it really matter? I mean -- at this point the TNI already repealed the treaty. So ... it's not like we're going to be able to go back on it ...

I know I am late to this, but I would like to say it does matter. The South Pacific has lost a long standing ally due to careless Foreign Affairs. I think it is very important to be critical of this. A strong foreign affairs department's goal should be to strengthen TSP's ties with allies and create new ones.

The people who advocated the hardest for this treaty have had a problem with TNI for reasons that have nothing to do with TNI and TSP's relationship. They knew it was aggressive, and actually prefer not having TNI as an ally. They presented the treaty as strengthen our independent position and not involve us in the TNI-TRR conflict. Both of these are obviously untrue. An honest account of the potential dangers of this treaty was not presented honestly to the region.

Just to respond here, I agree that it is important if we were misled. However, I don't want us to mistake what happened for where we are. We can point fingers, but it's not going to change the current state of Foreign Affairs.

-tsunamy
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Just because it wont change the past, doesnt mean it cant change the future. If you feel someone lied to you, would you trust what they say to you? Would you have voted for them?
Im not saying (one or more members of) the cabinet lied to us, or had ulterior motives... But the truth IS worth finding out.

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What is "the truth?" The Cabinet put everything we believe led to the breakdown of the alliance into our statement. Certain people here feel that we must be leaving things out, or that I had masterfully orchestrated the downfall of the TSP-TNI alliance. I'm not sure what else can be said. Those people who believe there were actually ulterior motives will always believe that. There's no way to prove them wrong.

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What is "the truth?" The Cabinet put everything we believe led to the breakdown of the alliance into our statement. Certain people here feel that we must be leaving things out, or that I had masterfully orchestrated the downfall of the TSP-TNI alliance. I'm not sure what else can be said. Those people who believe there were actually ulterior motives will always believe that. There's no way to prove them wrong.

Your statement? You mean the post in the Government House riddled with lies?

I am frustrated with the end of the alliance, but I am more frustrated with my government lying to me.

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That's exactly my point, right there. HEM, no matter what the Cabinet says or declassifies, you will always believe that we lied and misled the region. The reality is that everything in the statement is an accurate depiction of the Cabinet's feelings and thought processes. There are no "lies." There are differences of communication. Onder and TNI don't feel like the Liberal Haven discussion was bad, but we did, and that's what matters.

You don't like the political outcome of this whole thing. That doesn't mean anybody has lied.

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Just because it wont change the past, doesnt mean it cant change the future. If you feel someone lied to you, would you trust what they say to you? Would you have voted for them?
Im not saying (one or more members of) the cabinet lied to us, or had ulterior motives... But the truth IS worth finding out.

I agree -- and think it is worth finding out. But, that also doesn't change the position of our foreign affairs is in.

And HEM -- please offer a post outlining these "lies." I'm more than willing to listen, but you can't be making vague threats/claims and not substantiating them.

-tsunamy
[forum admin]

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A summary of blatant falsehoods in the Cabinet Statement:

When the Cabinet submitted the Treaty with the Rejected Realms for debate in our Assembly, it was made clear that we did not seek to antagonise The New Inquisition and respected their right to declare war on other regions according to their interests.

It was not made clear. How do I know this? Because never, not once, did TSP reach out to TNI to tell them about the signing of the treaty with their enemy (TRR). How could we make it clear that we didn't seek to antagonize TNI if we...never even spoke to them about it?

Our officials have every right to speak their minds as private citizens as long as their behaviour does not affect the discharge of their duties.

This is a lie in that we are saying that we oppose Cabinet members speaking their minds as private citizens when it does affect the discharge of their duties...yet somehow we still stand behind GR, who's public statements did effect the discharge of his duties.

Not quite as big of a deal as others, but still.

Following the liberation of Liberal Haven, OnderKelkia, the military commander of The New Inquisition, berated Geomania for granting an interview to The Rejected Times.

The complaint was not that Geomania spoke to the Rejected Times, the complaint was that Geomania was giving (what he saw to be) detailed information about UIAF, using conversations with UIAF officials, to the public sphere. I imagine that anybody would have a problem with that...

Also, using the word "berated" is also another lie. The log itself has Geomania apologizing to Onderkelkia for doing this, Onderkelkia assuring him that it isn't a big deal at the end of the day, and Geomania thanking Onderkelkia for his "candor". Berating? Yeah, right.

The alliance had been weakening for a very long time, as communication dwindled to nothing and military cooperation became rare.

Military cooperation became rare because TSP refused to go on offensive missions with TNI. So this isn't a lie per say, but we are taking something that is exclusively our fault and trying to play it off as a mistake of TNI.

We also wish to make clear that this turn of events was not entirely surprising to us, despite our best hopes that it could be avoided through diplomacy and better communications.

What diplomacy and communication? We failed to communicate with TNI at any point while signing an alliance with their enemies!

(This post was last modified: 07-29-2014, 02:48 PM by Thelegendofawesome.)

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That's exactly my point, right there. HEM, no matter what the Cabinet says or declassifies, you will always believe that we lied and misled the region. The reality is that everything in the statement is an accurate depiction of the Cabinet's feelings and thought processes. There are no "lies." There are differences of communication. Onder and TNI don't feel like the Liberal Haven discussion was bad, but we did, and that's what matters.

You don't like the political outcome of this whole thing. That doesn't mean anybody has lied.

The Cabinet has not declassified a single damn thing. That would be a good place to start, don't you think?

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When the Cabinet submitted the Treaty with the Rejected Realms for debate in our Assembly, it was made clear that we did not seek to antagonise The New Inquisition and respected their right to declare war on other regions according to their interests.

It was not made clear. How do I know this? Because never, not once, did TSP reach out to TNI to tell them about the signing of the treaty with their enemy (TRR). How could we make it clear that we didn't seek to antagonize TNI if we...never even spoke to them about it?

Perhaps you do not know it because you were not here for the TRR treaty debate or vote. During the debate, the Cabinet repeatedly stated that we would not be dragged into the UIAF-FRA war, on behalf of either side. We stressed that it was actually a huge point in negotiations, and it was made clear to TRR that TSP wanted to balance both treaties.

No, I did not speak to TNI about the treaty itself. Communications had already been nonexistent, following the Liberal Haven incident. I personally was not eager to bend over backwards for an ally that had antagonized us and treated us as an unequal partner. Was it an oversight that TNI was not directly notified? Probably. Would it have changed anything? No. At that point, the Cabinet was committed to going forward with TRR treaty, because we believed it would reassert our independence by setting our priorities on GCR sovereignty and security.

That TNI could not see beyond its war with the FRA, and decided it was impossible to work with TSP anymore, is all on them. The Cabinet made it clear that we believe it is wholly unacceptable for any region or organization to directly attack another GCR, and that this position applied equally to the UIAF directly attacking TRR. We sincerely did not see any reason why the TSP-TNI alliance could not continue, unless TNI did not accept our stance on GCR sovereignty and security. It turns that they do not. That is a serious and intractable disagreement among allies, and even barring the TRR treaty, that disagreement would have been incredibly damaging to the alliance. We also made that crystal clear to the Assembly during the TRR treaty debate.

This is a lie in that we are saying that we oppose Cabinet members speaking their minds as private citizens when it does affect the discharge of their duties...yet somehow we still stand behind GR, who's public statements did effect the discharge of his duties.

No, they did not. It's impossible to say that my posts about the alliance had a negative impact on this discharge of my duties, because TNI never approached me about anything, and vice-versa. The entire time I've been the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the focus has been on diversifying our alliance networks. My "duties" were negotiating other treaties and finding other partners, which I did just fine. If TNI ever contacted any member of the Cabinet on a regular basis (which I'm very doubtful of in the first place), they contacted Geomania about military operations, which is something I have nothing to do with.

Arguing with Onder about Independence and imperialism is not a cardinal sin. If TNI cannot handle it when an individual in an allied region doesn't like Onder, that's their problem. I certainly didn't go about unilaterally dissolving treaties because I personally find Onder patronizing and insufferable. I tend to separate personal issues from foreign policy.

Following the liberation of Liberal Haven, OnderKelkia, the military commander of The New Inquisition, berated Geomania for granting an interview to The Rejected Times.

The complaint was not that Geomania spoke to the Rejected Times, the complaint was that Geomania was giving (what he saw to be) detailed information about UIAF, using conversations with UIAF officials, to the public sphere. I imagine that anybody would have a problem with that...

You may believe that. The Cabinet didn't.

Also, using the word "berated" is also another lie. The log itself has Geomania apologizing to Onderkelkia for doing this, Onderkelkia assuring him that it isn't a big deal at the end of the day, and Geomania thanking Onderkelkia for his "candor". Berating? Yeah, right.

The word "berated" was specifically used by Geomania, when he posted the chat log for the Cabinet shortly after having the conversation. Geomania did walk away feeling berated. You can't accuse Geomania of lying about what he felt.

I have already discussed the Liberal Haven issue to death. The bottom line is that the Cabinet came away with a certain understanding of the conversation. We issued a formal complaint to TNI and the UIAF about it. They didn't correct our understanding. In fact, TNI didn't do anything other than say they'd talk to others about it. Now they're trying to save face by saying they didn't need to respond, because the Cabinet didn't specifically request it, and that it wasn't technically a complaint because the Cabinet didn't label it explicitly as a complaint.

If TNI or the UIAF had responded, corrected our understanding (if we misunderstood anything), and apologized for Onder's brusque behavior, then perhaps we would be in a different place right now. But they didn't do any of that. The Cabinet operated under our own understanding of the conversation, and assumed TNI and the UIAF didn't give a shit about our concerns, because they never responded. If I would hazard a guess, I would imagine most of the Cabinet still feels that way. I certainly do, even after hearing their lame excuses.

The alliance had been weakening for a very long time, as communication dwindled to nothing and military cooperation became rare.

Military cooperation became rare because TSP refused to go on offensive missions with TNI. So this isn't a lie per say, but we are taking something that is exclusively our fault and trying to play it off as a mistake of TNI.

I imagine the only person who can give a detailed account of this is Geomania, who is no longer around right now. The MoA handles military operations independently of the rest of the Cabinet. That being said, Geomania was not always MoA, and military cooperation with TNI or the UIAF was still relatively rare. The Cabinet statement does not assign blame to a single party -- our military has seen its bouts of inactivity for a while. It was a statement of reality. Lack of military cooperation and deteriorating communications contributed most to the slow decline of the alliance. This happened over several administrations.

The Cabinet has not declassified a single damn thing. That would be a good place to start, don't you think?

The pertinent communique referenced in our statement was already leaked by TNI, so there's nothing to declassify. I certainly won't support declassifying everything to do TNI or TRR if all you want to do with it is play politics.

What specifically do you think should be declassified, and why is it important to declassify it?

(This post was last modified: 07-29-2014, 04:12 PM by Tsunamy.)

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