(03-08-2016, 06:23 PM)Punchwood Wrote: So Bernie Sanders wants a $15 an hour minimum wage, so that's why he pays his interns $12 an hour! If so many Americans need a wage rise why doesn't he pay his own workers what he thinks should be the minimum wage?

Wanna know how much any other campaign pays interns? $0. Because traditionally, Interns and most non-high level campaign workers aren't paid, at all. He's the only campaign that's even actually PAYING his interns. No other campaign is even doing that.
(http://time.com/money/4215463/bernie-san...ternships/) - Time Article ABOUT how Bernie is the ONLY CANDIDATE paying his Interns

(03-08-2016, 06:23 PM)Punchwood Wrote: Sanders is against war 100% right? Wrong! In 1999 when the US intervened in Kosovo war Bernie voted for military action! In fact he was in such support of intervention when anti-war campaigners took control of his office in protect he himself ordered for their arrest! One of his advisers resigned because he was so disgusted by Sanders actions.

Yes, congratulations. Bernie voted for US/NATO intervention in Kosovo. Do you know why? Because the Serbians were committing violations of Human Rights and GENOCIDE. Serbians in Kosovo were trying to eliminate the Albanian Population because of their ethnicity! We had to stop them. No one has the right to commit genocide. There are numerous pieces of evidence showing that Human Rights were violated and the ICJ/ICTY aren't even finished with the criminal cases. It was justified intervention. I'm sorry for those protestors that got arrested, but, he made the right call. We have an obligation as human beings to prevent human rights violations, even if it means we have to take up arms to do so. Links to such information can be found on Wikipedia.
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War ) - About the Kosovo War
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes...Kosovo_War ) - About Human Rights Violations during the Kosovo War

(03-08-2016, 06:23 PM)Punchwood Wrote: He would like you to think he is a “fierce critic of the Iraq war,” yet despite this he voted for giving the then President George Bush even more powers to get even more involved in Iraq and Afghanistan. He was such a supporter of the Iraqi war when a Congressman proposed a 35 point document to impeach the then President, Sanders dismissed it as being "impractical."

Yes, he was a critic of the Iraq War, and still is. But No, he didn't vote to expand Bush's powers(A move probably better known as the Patriot Act) . In fact, every time a bill came up to expand the US's entrenchment in Iraq, he voted no, as can be seen on his public voting record, or, you know, with a little research. There are several accounts showing that he he stood against the Iraq War and the Patriot act, therefore nullifying any accusations of him doing so. The Iraq war was a unilateral action done by a few western countries to gain access to Iraq's oilfields, and ultimately destabilized the Middle East on a massive scale, much unlike Afghanistan, which is explained below. Bernie opposed it at every turn, as his voting record proves.

As for Afghanistan, We knew Al Queda was there. How did we know? Because we funded them! We created Al Queda to fight the Soviets in the 80's and we knew they were there. We acted with the support of the UN, who created the International Security Assistance Force(ISAF) to help stabilize Afghanistan in the post war years. This was a closely organized international coalition, supported by the UN, because of the Taliban's involvement with Al Queda. Again, if you did your own research, you'd know this, and know that it is organizations like ISAF and the UN that make up the core of Bernie's foreign policies.

As for the issue of impeachment, he said that trying to impeach Bush at the time would be "Impractical" because all the neo-conservative republicans that supported Bush's actions in Iraq made up the majority of both the House and the Senate, and therefore, trying to get such an impeachment passed would be inpossible, because it required basic majority, which would not happen while the Republicans controlled both houses. And, not only that, it should be noted that Rep. Coyers, the man who proposed impeachment of Bush in the first place, did not bring up the bill again when the Democrats controlled both the House and the Senate, making it clear that such an attempt was only a political move by the Democrats to get more votes in the first place. Again, if you did your research, you'd know this.

( https://votesmart.org/candidate/key-vote...t9v4ZwrKUk ) - Bernie's voting Record
( http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-goodma...21026.html ) - Bernie on the Patriot Act/Iraq War vote
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efforts_to...ge_W._Bush ) - About the Impeachment Effort
( http://www.democraticunderground.com/dis...32x2502793 ) - Bernie's statement on the Impeachment Effort

(03-08-2016, 06:23 PM)Punchwood Wrote: In 2006 he refused to run as the Democratic Nominee for Senate in Vermont and said he would become “a hypocrite if he ran as a Democrat.” So why is he running to be the Democrat nominee? In fact he really doesn't like Democratic party in 1986 he had a little go at them by saying “the Democratic Party is ideologically bankrupt. Democrats have no ideology. Their ideology is opportunism,” what does that make you Sanders? An opportunist as well it would seem.

Yea, he's been critical of the Democratic party in the past. Yes, he refused to run as the democratic candidate for Senate in Vermont. The reason he running as one now is because it is IMPOSSIBLE to run as an independent for President. Do you know the name of the last man who was an independent and was president? George Washington. The man who didn't even have any real competition for the Presidency. The odds of Bernie running and winning as an independent were astronomical, so, He picked the party that he sided with most, the Democrats, which gave him the massive press boost he needed to get as far as he has. I don't see any hypocrisy, only practicality. Not only that, but, he still isn't a member of the Democratic Party, even though he's running for their nomination. Trying to accuse him of Hypocrisy with this is like trying to say that Birds don't have wings.

( http://ivn.us/2012/07/31/whos-an-indepen...residents/ )- Source showing George Washington as our only Indipendent President

(03-08-2016, 06:23 PM)Punchwood Wrote: He attacks other Candidates who receive money from super PACs. He has for a long time been a real critic of how Candidates can receive large sums of money from these organisations. However Sanders has received over $1 million from a super PAC: National Nurses United. Yet Clinton has received less than half a million dollars from super PACs. Yet Sanders said he would never accept donations as they are corrupt, turns out that's a lie.

National Nurses United is a Nurses' Union. It is infact the Largest Nurses' Union in the United States. They may be a SuperPAC by technicality(In some cases they aren't, not sure why), but, they are a still a union, the largest nurses' union in the US, and if suddenly ironic to have the support of Healthcare workers, well, I may as well dig my own grave and find my own hospital bed. If you did your research, you would know this. And Clinton has not received only half a million dollars from SuperPACs, almost a third of her Campaign's funding comes from SuperPACs(About $64 million). Again, if you did your research, you'd know this.
( http://www.nationalnursesunited.org/pages/19 )- National Nurses United "About" page
( http://presidential-candidates.insidegov...ry-Clinton ) - Comparison between Bernie and Hillary. Go to "Financials" to see the Comparison between money sources.

(03-08-2016, 06:23 PM)Punchwood Wrote: One last point, he loves to attack the private sector and one target of his is Uber. He said he had “serious problems” with Uber because it was an “unregulated” company. So that's why all his taxi expenses are for Uber! What's that Sanders, you support traditional taxi drivers? I don't think so.

This is absolutely nitpicking here with the Uber stuff, but, here we go....

Alright, so, here's the deal with Uber. They regularly evade normal taxi regulation laws because they're workers are classified as Independent contractors as opposed to employees. This means they get taxed less, so the rides are cheaper, and their drivers don't even have to register or go through the same courses that taxi drivers do! It's ludicrous!

But yes, I'll admit, Bernie does use Uber for almost everything, probably because it's so much cheaper. But seriously, that's like complaining about someone using Windows when Microsoft had a monopoly on the Computer Software industry. Not only that, but with most Uber drivers making ~$90,000 a year, they fall in the category of "Upper Middle Class", so, why wouldn't Bernie use them, especially because it's much more widely available than any taxi service? It's cheaper, they control the industry, and they support the middle class. It's not like he's getting his campaign funded by them. No need to flip the table over nitpicking.
( http://www.buzzfeed.com/johanabhuiyan/wh...#.kyzvNRjJ ) - How much do Uber Drivers get paid
( http://dailycaller.com/2015/11/03/bernie...axi-rides/ ) - Bernie uses Uber
( http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_p...vices.html ) - Lack of Regulation in regards to Uber

(03-08-2016, 06:23 PM)Punchwood Wrote: These are just a few examples of his hypocrisy, there are many more. I can't see how you can say Clinton is a hypocrite yet Sanders isn't when he clear is. Sanders doesn't work for the everyday American, he works for himself.

That is one of the reasons I abandoned Sanders, hypocrisy. There are many other reasons such as being a one issue candidate (I can explain what I mean by that if need be), the unrealistic ideas he proposes and finally his un-electability.

I'd really like to see these "Many more" Hypocrisies you talk about. Especially because most of your views in this statement seem to come from one source(Ironically called "Counter-Punch") That bashes Bernie Sanders but cites no sources(THey claim to be citing Senator Warren, but, proceed to provide no links or quotes), except for another article on the same site that again cites no sources. So, right now, to the extent of my knowledge, your entire opinion that claims to have facts backing it is built off of one opinion piece from one website.
( http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/07/27/b...-war-left/ )- Article that Punchwood almost Word for Word uses as his opinion

I already argued that he was not a one issue candidate by linking you to his issue page, so please, explain that. I'm sure we'd all love to hear it.
( https://berniesanders.com/issues/ ) - Bernie's Issue page, because appearantly we didn't read it the first time I linked it.

As for Electability, I can say this, honestly:

Bernie is far more electable than Hillary. According to Both CNN Politics and Real Clear Politics, Bernie beats all of the Republican Candidates(Unlike Hillary, who only beats Trump in the CNN poll) but beats them by greater numbers. These are not the only polls to say this either. Much like he has been in the Primary, Bernie has been steadily gaining support Nationwide, and appeals to more independents(who are now the largest voting block in the US) than Hillary Clinton. The arguement over Bernie's "non-electability" is null and void.
( http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/01/politics/d...ders-poll/ ) - CNN/ORC Poll News Article
( http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2016/images...eneral.pdf ) - CNN/ORC Poll
( http://dailycaller.com/2016/02/17/nation...y-clinton/ ) - Article about the Real Clear Politics Poll(Links to all Referenced RCP Polls are in the Article)

And if his ideas are so "Unrealistic" then why the hell can Europe, yes I do mean the Entire Continent, Implement his ideas? The UK, France, Germany, Belgium, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, and a dozen other countries can do it, and they're working just fine, so why can't we? Is it really so unachieveable to believe that one day, Poorer Americans will not have to make the choice between Rent and Groceries? Is it really that hard to have everybody able to get the medical treatment that they deserve as living, breathing human beings? Because if it is, the next time you get on Discord, go talk to Joshua Ravenclaw. Go talk to any TSPer from any of those countries, and they can tell you what it's like to have those services, like Single-payer healthcare, have done for them. What Bernie is proposing isn't some pot-dream that he came up with, it's already been implemented with countries that are as westernized, as modernized, and as diverse as the United States. To say it's unattainable, or unrealistic, is probably the best joke I keep hearing and having to prove people wrong about, because it is neither, because it has already been done.

I think I soundly rest my case, unless you have more things about Bernie's "Electability" or the false notion that he's a "One Issue Candidate" that we can discuss.

OMG You really have been brainwashed! I don't have time to write a full repay right now but still. You have denied factual evidence and ignored the truth at every turn. And no I did not use that article to gave us a link to, I have never even read it. I used multiple articles, which I can link you to in a few hours time.

I'm not sure a point-by-point rebuttal citing multiple news sources counts as "brainwashed".

The most ironic thing is that Punchwood is from Scotland, the UK. Where Bernie's proposals are in use(I think).

Bernie is also pretty much the only candidate openly on board with paid maternity leave. The only other countries that don't guarantee paid maternity leave are third world.

Even Saudi Arabia has paid maternity leave, and when a far-right autocratic kingdom that brutally punishes any and all dissidence is doing better than you in the field of social progress than you, you know you need to get your shit together.

Papua New Guinea is that other nation.

(03-09-2016, 04:11 AM)Punchwood Wrote: You have denied factual evidence and ignored the truth at every turn.

I'm pretty sure you are the one denying the factual evidence Res provided.

Even if the Bern is as terrible as you say, Punchwood, Resentine provided good sources to back up his claims, while you haven't. That alone would make me give more gravitation towards Resentine's point of view.


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http://www.truthandaction.org/bernie-san...pocrite/2/
https://panampost.com/nelson-albino/2016...hypocrite/
http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/be...nce-abroad
http://www.mintpressnews.com/bernie-sand...ce/208066/
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/2/6/1...y-bankrupt
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bern...69c7a6bda3
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/18/politi...ses-union/
http://spectator.org/blog/64564/bernie-s...y-all-time

(03-09-2016, 11:48 AM)Punchwood Wrote: http://www.truthandaction.org/bernie-san...pocrite/2/
https://panampost.com/nelson-albino/2016...hypocrite/
http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/be...nce-abroad
http://www.mintpressnews.com/bernie-sand...ce/208066/
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/2/6/1...y-bankrupt
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bern...69c7a6bda3
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/18/politi...ses-union/
http://spectator.org/blog/64564/bernie-s...y-all-time

None of these state what you said before, however, they don't counter my current points.