(03-25-2016, 11:16 PM)Belschaft Wrote: I'd honestly like to avoid going down the recall route Ryccia, as once we subject administration to the political process we can't undo that. I just wish that the admins were able to realize that the current situation is untenable, and that they don't have the trust of too many people.

I don't quite understand what we want here. Should admins just resign when the pressure gets to be too much? Or what ... exactly?

I mean, we want an oversight over the admins and I think we should have that. But apparently, we shouldn't have that because it'll politicize the process. So, I'm sort of at a loss here.

(03-21-2016, 08:49 PM)muller1406 Wrote: I know this may seem a bit of a stupid question but here goes, How are the admin chosen to be admin? And who gets to decide on these people to be admin?

Thank all for the reply to my question, So if i understand some were asked and others applied, Would seem out of line to pose this,
Anyone who wants to be admin should apply in writing, the same for anyone who is asked? I am not trying to stop anyone from been admin but would like to know how they would fit the position they are been asked to fill.

(03-26-2016, 02:14 AM)Tsunamy Wrote:

(03-25-2016, 11:16 PM)Belschaft Wrote: I'd honestly like to avoid going down the recall route Ryccia, as once we subject administration to the political process we can't undo that. I just wish that the admins were able to realize that the current situation is untenable, and that they don't have the trust of too many people.

I don't quite understand what we want here. Should admins just resign when the pressure gets to be too much? Or what ... exactly?

I mean, we want an oversight over the admins and I think we should have that. But apparently, we shouldn't have that because it'll politicize the process. So, I'm sort of at a loss here.

Broadly speaking, yes. The admin team, and the root admin in particular, needs to pay careful attention to the attitude of the region towards their actions. Ideally incidents wouldn't occur that made people believe that there had been admin misconduct, or cause mistrust in the admin team, but if they do then you need to respond.

The issue there, of course, is that people have been complaining about admins (read: me) long before any argument about "admin misconduct" arose. I remember players saying I shouldn't be an admin because of my tenure as MoFA, which makes no sense at all. (And let's not forget that's one of your primary reasons for not trusting or liking me, too, Belschaft.)

So it's not so easy to make this grand claims that "the community" distrusts any admin, or that the "the situation is untenable." Politics have been intertwined and can't be untangled from it.

So what we *can* do is change policies to address the activities or decisions that you dislike, rather than focus on people. Isn't that what we did we with the amnesty and why we're having this Great Council? To focus on policies, not people?

Admin policies have been changed. If there are no further changes short of kicking out the people you dislike, that will make you feel better, then there isn't anything left to do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(03-26-2016, 03:28 PM)sandaoguo Wrote: Admin policies have been changed. If there are no further changes short of kicking out the people you dislike, that will make you feel better, then there isn't anything left to do.

We've changed some, but more can be changed. As with the SPSF discussion, we need to discuss positions and how to treat them, not who currently holds them.

I made the point Discord, but if we focus on people without looking at the structure, we're going to run smack back into these issues with different players.

Exactly, Tsu. So now we need people who are unhappy with the way the admin team works to come and offer solutions, or at least tell us the problems so maybe we can come up with solutions.

There are always going to be people who don't like *who* the admins are.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(03-26-2016, 04:39 PM)sandaoguo Wrote: Exactly, Tsu. So now we need people who are unhappy with the way the admin team works to come and offer solutions, or at least tell us the problems so maybe we can come up with solutions.

There are always going to be people who don't like *who* the admins are.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fwiw, I think part of this comes down to how do you build trust?

That's not exactly something we can legislate. Or something we can write.

My personal feelings is that we make an appoint and verify system and then have the possibility of a recall or judicial removal. I suppose it's politicizing the system to some level, but I think we're just kidding ourselves if we think it's not being politicized already.

You build trust by earning it. You need to learn the wall that exists between private and public and that it is not to be violated. EVER. Admins don't need citizenship to be admins. Whoever's dime it's on owns it and he/she gets to pick who they want to help them with the tasks of maintaining it. Admins DO NOT dictate how the game is played out. They can dictate where.
Should you need to be involved in the content, be involved but give moderation to someone else. It just is what it is. If your going to cross the line, show us what you see, just don't tell us you saw something bad and your interpretation of it. If your going to be player and an admin, hold yourselves to higher standards, not us to lower ones.
Remember, respect is earned, not legislated or demanded.

(03-26-2016, 07:53 PM)QuietDad Wrote: You build trust by earning it. You need to learn the wall that exists between private and public and that it is not to be violated. EVER. Admins don't need citizenship to be admins. Whoever's dime it's on owns it and he/she gets to pick who they want to help them with the tasks of maintaining it. Admins DO NOT dictate how the game is played out. The can dictate where.
Should you need to be involved in the content, be involved but give moderation to someone else. It just is what it is. If your going to cross the line, show us what you see, just don't tell us you saw something bad and your interpretation of it. If your going to be player and an admin, hold yourselves to higher standards, not us to lower ones.
Remember, respect is earned, not legislated or demanded.

While I don't disagree here, we've been in a bit of a Catch-22 where we don't trust the admins to do anything, but then are upset that they don't do anything. Further, I understand what undermines trust, but I'm less clear on how to rebuild it.

Just stop using your admin powers to influence the game. If you see something that isn't public, don't say anything or figure out a way to make it pubic that doesn't start with "I saw in a secret area.....". Give the appropriate people moderation flags over their respective areas and remove/refrain the admins and if someone wants a new subforum to try something, let them have it.
Figure out how to give whoever is responsible for citizenship the ability to change flags and keep the admins out of doing it and if an admin loses it due to charter limitations, reapply like everyone else has to, don't just "fix it". Set up the secret forums so their existence shows but we can't see the posts or even the threads, but we know they exist and aren't discovered by an admin saying "Well, in this secret forum....".
This is a forum for a community to enjoy and as such we should all know EVERYTHING that it entails. This isn't an entertainment venue for admins to change to make it enjoyable for them.
Seriously, It's been the same 6-7 people since 2008 when I first came to TSP fighting the same damn arguments over and over and over. There is a reason when we left IPB and I had a window to maybe host this forum myself I chose not to and this whole situation is the big reason I didn't want to. A forum user isn't an admin's minion, but an admin is a user's butler/concierge.