Preemptive punishments always send the right message. Are you sure you're not secret a Cormac supporter, Glen?

Coups are never justified, and the perpetrators of them should be punished harshly. Do you disagree? Are you unable to vow to never coup again?

If not, then why *shouldn't* you be blacklisted from GCRs?

Cormac, Tim, and Koth most definitely should.

I have no sympathy for those who play NS that way. Somebody who thinks coups are a valid way to play the game should be ostracized, and GCRs especially should take a much stronger stance on that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(04-23-2016, 02:29 PM)sandaoguo Wrote: Coups are never justified, and the perpetrators of them should be punished harshly. Do you disagree? Are you unable to vow to never coup again?

Yes, I completely disagree. In TWP before the Triumvirate coup the region was a complete mess. Suffering from political instability, the region had already been subject to a prior failed Defender-lead coup that fell apart. The government was weak and fractured and there was no legal way to change any of it.

In the end the Triumvirate was able to make the region stronger, as it negotiated with the Government in Exile and brought about a new government that incorporated the best parts of both sides. It was a classic example of a coup done right and leading to a stronger, more unified region.

Hand waving all coups as bad without context is incredibly ignorant and dangerous. Not to mention there are legitimate reasons to coup, such as in Lazarus when it was overtly taken over by the NPO when they set up their PRL government. Would you say that those who resisted the PRL are traitors and, if so, what region did they exactly betray? Lazarus or The Pacific?

In other words, you coup'd TWP because you believed you had a vision for the region that others needed to accept. Instead of looking for legal means -- I highly doubt there was literally no legal way to change a law -- you short circuited the government, to install one based on your own views of how TWP should be run. That you were benevolent enough (in your own opinion) to "negotiate" with the government-in-exile does not mean it was legitimate in the first place to coup. The ends do not justify the means.

This is like saying Hileville's coup was good because we're holding a Great Council now.

How many regions have been coup'd "for the greater good?" How many times has The Empire justified a coup by calling the government of the region incompetent or inactive?

Coups are never justified. It is not yours or anybody else's right to upend a regional government because you don't think it's working. Seizing power because you don't like the results of an election, which is what Cormac, Tim, and Koth have done, is also never justified. If you strongly believe that change needs to happen, then you must convince people that it does, and convince enough that there's popular support to enact change.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What about TP Glen? There is literally no legal mechanism to enact democratic reform there. Would a coup of TP to establish a democratic government be justified?

(04-23-2016, 03:27 PM)sandaoguo Wrote: In other words, you coup'd TWP because [...]

Well, Eli is the one who started the WPT, I was only a member of their government, but I won't let facts stand in the way of a good rant.

Belshaft Wrote:What about TP Glen? There is literally no legal mechanism to enact democratic reform there. Would a coup of TP to establish a democratic government be justified?

Didn't you read what he said, Bel? No coups are justified ever, even to overthrow an unjust dictatorial government.

I'm sure a coup in Pacifica would only serve to have a "cooling effect" on democracy, amirite?

(04-23-2016, 04:08 PM)Belschaft Wrote: What about TP Glen? There is literally no legal mechanism to enact democratic reform there. Would a coup of TP to establish a democratic government be justified?

No, in my opinion. It is never legitimate or justified to seize control of a region illegally in order to impose your own vision of what's right and good for it.

In The Pacific, if you should convince the community to demand democracy. If they start a revolution and unseat the delegate, that is different from a coup. A coup is a couple people deciding to put themselves in power, either for kicks or because they think they deserve it. You can't really equate an Empire-style "for your own good" coup with a bottom-up revolution, which would be based on democratic principles and popular sovereignty.

A good rule of thumb is that changing the government should always be a decision made by the whole community, not a self-selected group of elites imposing their wants no matter what justification they use.

(04-23-2016, 06:17 PM)sandaoguo Wrote: In The Pacific, if you should convince the community to demand democracy. If they start a revolution and unseat the delegate, that is different from a coup. A coup is a couple people deciding to put themselves in power, either for kicks or because they think they deserve it. You can't really equate an Empire-style "for your own good" coup with a bottom-up revolution, which would be based on democratic principles and popular sovereignty.

So what you're saying, Glen, is in The Pacific, if one of their high-ranking members staged a coup, took over the region and replaced the government with a free and Democratic system, you would totally be opposed to that and argue that that person should be banned in TSP.

I think our messages are a little mixed here. On the international stage, are we supporting Democracy or are we simply supporting the status quo?

To respond to that, since the NPO is the only legitimate government, and that hypothetical government isn't since the people do not ask for it, of course we should fight back.

Sad to be true, but we must fight back if that happens.

That's ridiculous. Given the opportunity to change a region for the better we would support the status quo simply because it's "more legitimate"?

See, that line of thinking is how the NPO was able to take over and destroy the Lazarus Phoenix government and transform it into the foreign controlled PRL dictatorship all while using a facade of "legitimacy". Well, that and a heavy dose of apathy from the GCRs.