(01-26-2015, 12:26 AM)southern bellz Wrote: I don't understand why the idea of having a less trained, more militia style military force (which I support) is tied to removing its ability to be deployed (which I don't support).

Because the problems we've outlined exist exactly because of the ability to be deployed. It places us in on the R/D spectrum, and as long as we are not firmly in one camp, we're in the middle of a tugowar. Remove the ability to actually be raider or defender, and we remove ourselves from that tug o war. The other alternative simply isn't going to happen with this generation of players.

(01-26-2015, 02:25 AM)Sandaoguo Wrote:

(01-26-2015, 12:26 AM)southern bellz Wrote: I don't understand why the idea of having a less trained, more militia style military force (which I support) is tied to removing its ability to be deployed (which I don't support).

Because the problems we've outlined exist exactly because of the ability to be deployed. It places us in on the R/D spectrum, and as long as we are not firmly in one camp, we're in the middle of a tugowar. Remove the ability to actually be raider or defender, and we remove ourselves from that tug o war. The other alternative simply isn't going to happen with this generation of players.

Removing ourselves from that tug of war was the entire point of Independence. The only issue is that a minority of players are unhappy with any form of military activity but defending, and cause issues for any region that adopts an independent (small or large I) military policy.

QuietDad Wrote:Recently, the SPSF was called in last minute to support a liberation of Coalition of Catholic States and assist a large group including The United Defenders League (UDL), Ten-Thousand-Islands-Treaty-Organisation (TITO), Spiritus Defense Force (SDF), The Rejected Realms Army (RRA), Renegade Islands Alliance Special Forces (RIASF), Taijitu Militia, Fort Triumph Marshal Service (FTMS), The Founderless Regions Alliance’s Rangers (FRA), Lazarene Liberation Army (LLA), East Pacific Sovereign Army (EPSA), South Pacific Special Forces (SPSF) and Wintreath’s Hvitt Riddiral (WHR). Some of which the SPSF has worked with before. I agreed to join them but without time, I didn't have time to check things out first. Once the nission took place, I found out that one of the occupiers was the ERN of Europia which is a treatied ally of TSP. Had I known they where there, the SPSF would not have participated. This was an error on MY part and I take full responsibility. The regional government had nothing to do with this. I offer my sincere apologies to Kraketopia and the ERN for my missteps and hope we can put this behind us.

Not a diplomatic crisis ^

I'm yet to experience a diplomatic crisis. It appears that our various allies are rather mature in that they accept the SPSF has free operational command of its own force, a concept that is alien to so many people it seems.

The thing that annoys me is the caring of what other people think. Frankly, I don't care what other people think. I've never really been a part of R\D myself but I've always been vocal about liking defenderism in theory and in practice (They raiders descrated Hogwarts and I'll never forget that). However, I don't mind if TSP's army engages in both defender and raider missions.

We are TSP. We like to have drama and crises and long threads of circular arguments where people find new ways to state the same thing over and over again.

I was going to go into a whole metaphor about neutering but I don't really need to.

It seems like TSP's military went on some mission that caused some kerfuffle. You know what I would see as a solution? Take out any military related clauses or amend them with our allies to state, "TSP's military will try to not actively go against allied operations but we acknowledge the reality that our allies have varied interests that may be at cross purposes. TSP will engage in missions that are symbolically or ideologically important to its elected minister and allies will have to accept that."

If we do go with the option of curtailing the Ministry, then I would also want there to be an independent group that actively sought out R\D missions from across the board because at the end of the day it's about TSP and what is of interest to its people.

As for foreign policy, to be honest there's always going to be criticism or drama or like meltdowns. Others shouldn't be dictating us, we should figure out what we want and do it that way.

Yes, let's ignore any crisis that didn't happen while you were Minister. Because one of our allies never tried to pressure is into choosing them over another ally, right? Because their President didn't accuse us of going down the path of defenderdorm. Our allies might like you as Foreign Minister, Raven, but that doesn't negate anything that happened before your term.

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How about we also stop pretending like being Independent is the magic formula that removes us from R/D. We tried it, and it doesn't. It creates expectations that we will be in reality raiders that occasionally defend, and that we will frequently accuse defenders of being ideological. That is not how we do business, which is why we dropped the Independet label.

Ah yes, let's talk about how you are upset at me refusing to drag people over the coals despite the fact that the government who done it has changed twice since it happened. I do so love a good argument about a futile topic.

If you want to drag said region across the coals, then go and do it - I won't stop you but at the same time I will not burn my own credibility and connections with a region I have worked with for over two years over something that I was not involved in. Unless I am told to make it an issue by Tsunamy, and even then I will resist - because the people who you have problems with are no longer in office. It would be like them bringing up a disagreement they had back when Escade or Belschaft were delegate and expecting TSP to handle it. I cannot expect them to take us seriously over a topic neither party was involved in.

I'm sick of saying us and them, so I'll bring this into the open: Europeia.

I have considerable respect for the Republic of Europeia, much like I do for the regions of The North Pacific, The Rejected Realms, Lazarus and Balder. I will not damage the credibility of the South Pacific's government or foreign ministry by chasing petty grudges for a previous term. Kris, if you want to chase them, then you should have ran for re-election as delegate. You do not get to pick and choose. You wanted culture, you got culture, so please accept my decision not to rehash an incident from a previous executive term - if you have legitimate concerns, we can deal with them but right now, all I am seeing is your demands I go to Europeia and look like a fool.

My husband is indisposed right now, so I thought I would check in to see how the Grand Council was going. 
Military debates are always such fun! But a perfect example of the alive democracy here in TSP.

""TSP's military will try to not actively go against allied operations but we acknowledge the reality that our allies have varied interests that may be at cross purposes. TSP will engage in missions that are symbolically or ideologically important to its elected minister and allies will have to accept that." - Escade

I think what you suggest here could be easily dealt with like so:

"Neither TSP nor <other signatory> will engage in military hostilities against the other. Participation by TSP and <other signatory here> on opposite sides of a military engagement that does not constitute an attack on either region shall not be considered "military hostilities against the other" for this purpose." 

Unrelated to the above:

TSP has had a successful military before. The Military saw great success under both Minister Sheepa and Minister Rebel Topia. The Army also saw success under Minister's Southern Bellz and Minister Belschaft, but those terms of activity were a little more sporadic than the former two. I believe that TSP had a force to be reckoned with in late 2012 and early 2013. Milograd's coup did disrupt a lot of the good work that was occurring in this area, suddenly the military was completely internally focused and the rebrand/restructure after the coup wasn't perfect.

I think that part of the issue has been that the military seems to be constantly undergoing an attempt to rebrand or name it. Things get up and running again, there is a proposal to change it, and the entire military structure & name changes to something else. I do not think the answer is to attempt to completely remove the ability of the military to actively participate in game play operations, nor is the answer to simply rename the Military and to give it a different structure. I think the approach needs to be one where certain standards are adopted, and the military command structure is able to effectively operate under those standards. I think it would be healthy to take a break from ideology/military related debates, and simply allow the army to focus on recruitment, training, and military exercises. Once the military is at a sustainable level, the debate can shift to some of those matters, if necessary.

When I first joined NS, and was put in charge of the development of the North Pacific's regional military - the Army of the South Pacific was held up as something to work towards. It was active, successful, filled with native TSPers, and dedicated to achieving workable goals. I do not see how it is impossible for TSP to return to having an army of that gold standard.

To see a former Delegate strongly criticising Professor Henn and his involvement in the military, is quite absurd. It is true that the Minister of the Army is elected independently, but the Delegate still has a role in the overseeing of cabinet. I think that Kris Kringle should accept part of the blame for the state of the military - given that he held absolutely no interest in it while Delegate, had no involvement whatsoever in recruitment efforts, and had next to zero involvement in coordinating military operations with allies. Former Delegates such as Hileville, Brutland, Belschaft, and Southern Bellz had a much wider involvement in supporting their elected Military leaders than the Kringle administration. The fact that Professor Henn and Quiet Dad were still turning up to participate in military operations, despite little support from the rest of the government, is a testament to their dedication to the military. I fully believe that having TWO people show up for a military operation, is better than having nobody show up at all. I am actually shocked by the criticism I read earlier in this thread.

The Ministry for Regional Affairs, the Delegate, and the Ministry of the Army should be able to coordinate effective recruitment techniques that will benefit all areas of the region. Similarly, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs can step in to assist the MoA in the coordination of military activity with foreign allies. I think a more supportive working environment is needed for the Army to return to it's previous success.

A region as large and as vibrant as the South Pacific should be able to have a functioning military. It simply requires a focus on recruitment, recruitment, recruitment, and then constant training activities to keep the new recruits active and engaged. It is most definitely doable. There are a lot of hugely qualified individuals, a lot of excellent military minds, great delegaters, and effective leaders. The answer is not to toss the military out the door in the name of demilitarisation - the answer is to focus on the grass roots development of that organisation. I believe that will be enough to return TSP to the age of successful military activity that it has seen previously.

On the contrary. I am not asking you to go after Europeia at the cost of your own credibility, even though your credibility should not be taking priority over our foreign policy and interests. What I ask is that we actually be consistent in our behaviour, and that requires acknowledging that we did have a crisis with Europeia, and that the manner in which we were treated deserves acknowledgement from them. Nobody asks that Mousebumples issue a public statement assuming responsibility for the actions of Kraketopia, but to claim that a change of government somehow exempts the Government from all past actions is laughable.

We can continue being allies with Europeia, I fully agree and endorse that course of action. But I will not accept the notion that being allies involves ignoring events that occurred less than six months ago. What should be done is face those events, talk frankly about them and only then move on, rather than brush them off as something that happened during previous administrations, and portray those opposing your stance as a few ideologically-driven people.

Whatever my position, I still continue to be an engaged citizen in this region, and have every right to question whether our foreign policy is responding to our long term interests. Specially if it isn't, because calling my indignation over the Conferences Crisis a "petty grudge" is actually insulting. So, from someone who is not ideologically-driven and whose only interest is the good of the South Pacific, I am telling you that it is time to think as Foreign Minister of this region, and not as a neutral mediator between regions. Your responsibility is to the South Pacific, and standing up to your region in no way would make you a fool.

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McM:

I had little concern for the military during my delegacy, and in fact had little knowledge about military gameplay, since I have never served in any military or participated in any mission. Which is why I trusted in QuietDad and allowed him the autonomy that he asked for, which is how the Special Forces have conducted their business ever since. However, to assume as an outside observer that I had no interest in the SPSF and provided no assistance to it is nonsense, and does not hold up to reality. I was constantly in communication with QuietDad to see how the Special Forces were doing and asking if there was anything I could do, I sent recruitment messages and encouraged the region to enlist, I included the SPSF in the list of Fellowship Programme activities, which actually provided an easy way for recruits to enlist. What happened with those recruits was then the responsibility of the Minister, and there lies our problem, since those recruits did not stick around, most only participated in one mission, if at all.

To portray my delegacy in such a way also ignores the fact that each Delegate has personal interests and focuses, and mine was the development of regional culture and activity, something I did to great success. Ever since Escade and I became involved in the Ministry of Regional Affairs, the South Pacific has become a more active and thriving region, in terms of activity and culture. That being my focus doesn't mean I completely abandoned other areas of the government, it simply means that I trusted the Minister, who by logic was more experienced in that field, to do their job, with me only in a supporting role.

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This discussion is getting way too toxic for me, so I'm taking a step back. However, I still meant every single word in this post.

(01-25-2015, 10:28 PM)Sandaoguo Wrote: I think the lesson to learn from Kris' post is not that we need a new great leader, but that this region just doesn't care about military gameplay in the first place. A lot of what is being discussed here is so, so much in the abstract, it's hard to see how people are even talking about TSP.

This ^

Oh, I am so sick of this bullshit. We were told that if we stopped calling ourselves Independent then the crowd who had problems with our military policy would be satisfied, so we gave in and did it despite being completely fucking absurd; we still have an independent military, we just don't call it Independent anymore.

Now the exact same crowd is back demanding that we abolish the military entirely.

This is facetious nonsense and I am tired of it.

If you want this region to become defender just come out and say it so we can have an honest fucking debate rather than this bollocks.