(02-21-2015, 01:11 AM)Sam111 Wrote: I've just got a quick question for you all. If I invited a bunch of my real life friends to join us and to vote for me (Never going to happen; I like being able to pretend I still have a life ) would that constitute electoral fraud and would it break any laws?

Do not listen to Ditortilla. You would not be in the wrong. Inviting some of your friends to play and vote for you is not the same as what Belschaft planned. Belschaft had a clear and precise plan to eliminate those he didn't like and alter foreign relations.

Considering that I probably actually post something serious in regards to my appeal;

I've never denied that OBT did happen, nor that it wasn't underhanded, dodgy and manipulative. What is was, however, is legal. Maybe vote stacking should be illegal; I note that there is a proposal to make it so. However it isn't; not now, not at the time it occurred.

It is generally speaking a bad idea to punish people for doing things that are legal, even if they are distasteful.

When OBT was revealed I suffered serious reputational damage and the political consequences of such. That was inevitable, and appropriate. I did something politically dodgy, and faced the consequences. That was what should have happened; political actions have political consequences. What they shouldn't have is non-political consequences, such as the retraction of citizenship.

Would I do something like OBT again, if it was legal and I thought it was a good idea? Probably. NS is a game, and it is a game of politics, ideology, espionage and diplomacy. We set rules for that game ourselves by creating laws, and I've never felt disinclined to play within those rules as fully as I can. As such, I can't really be too upset by this action; others are doing to me what I would probably do to them if the situation was reversed. The removal of my citizenship was entirely legal, achieved by bending the rules in an underhanded manner. Ironically, using a law I created for just this kind of reason.

The questions you should ask, however is this;

Does my approach of playing NS to the full, within the rules, have merit?

If it does, then the removal of my citizenship is a fair move within the game; but the justification for it is facetious, as my own actions were equally fair.

If it doesn't have merit, then my actions weren't fair - but nor was the removal of citizenship. Misusing security legislation - and frankly security legislation that only exists to be be misused - is also not fair.

I honestly don't particularly mind which way this appeal goes - there's plenty of other places in NS for me to play - but I do think there are genuine questions about what kind of region you all want TSP to be underlying this. Should legal actions be punished beyond political penalties? And should security legislation be used for political reasons?

If you think that NS is some kind of Nation based version of facebook, where we're all friends and get along and like each other, then I'm probably not the kind of person you want to be in a region with. I'm kinda of an arsehole. However, if you think it's a game, and one that we should play to the full, then you should be concerned when people are kicked out for doing so.

Except what you did was illegal. It was treason and it was fraud.

Your attempt to exonerate yourself kind of falls flat when your stated purpose for pursuing OBT was to conduct a criminal investigation into whether or not Unibot and I stacked our elections. So clearly you believed then that it was illegal.

If I'd believed it was illegal, I would have pressed charges; I didn't. I choose to combat it directly, precisely because;

1. It was legal
2. I couldn't acquire evidence sufficiently strong to produce sufficient political damage

It has now been five months since Cormac revealed the one time existence of OBT; that's been five months for anyone to press charges. No one has. If what I did was illegal, someone should have pressed charges by now.

Claiming that I have committed treason and fraud whilst declining to press charges is defamation.

(02-22-2015, 04:26 AM)Sandaoguo Wrote: Except what you did was illegal. It was treason and it was fraud.

Your attempt to exonerate yourself kind of falls flat when your stated purpose for pursuing OBT was to conduct a criminal investigation into whether or not Unibot and I stacked our elections. So clearly you believed then that it was illegal.

Just out of curiosity, would you be willing to produce the law that you believe Belschaft broke?

Let me go on record here to commend Bel for an incredibly thoughtful post above. I appreciate the candor and thinks it works toward putting this whole thing behind us.

While I'll slightly disagree in that this law was misused -- and really, why is there a law on the books only there to be misused? -- I think this is incredibly helpful.

Further, I respect Bel's admittance of game play here. I don't especially like it and find it tiring to be part of a region or game where people are constantly jockeying for power. But, I understand where he is coming from, even though I'd sooner sing "Kumbaya" around a campfire than be kicking people from the region.

The situation is that it's just a fundamentally different view of the game -- as Bel has pointed out. I don't know if these views are able to be or should be reconciled. But, it does explain why some people takes things more personally than others.

(02-22-2015, 05:00 AM)HEM Wrote:

(02-22-2015, 04:26 AM)Sandaoguo Wrote: Except what you did was illegal. It was treason and it was fraud.

Your attempt to exonerate yourself kind of falls flat when your stated purpose for pursuing OBT was to conduct a criminal investigation into whether or not Unibot and I stacked our elections. So clearly you believed then that it was illegal.

Just out of curiosity, would you be willing to produce the law that you believe Belschaft broke?

Treason and fraud, as I said.

(02-22-2015, 12:29 PM)Sandaoguo Wrote:

(02-22-2015, 05:00 AM)HEM Wrote:

(02-22-2015, 04:26 AM)Sandaoguo Wrote: Except what you did was illegal. It was treason and it was fraud.

Your attempt to exonerate yourself kind of falls flat when your stated purpose for pursuing OBT was to conduct a criminal investigation into whether or not Unibot and I stacked our elections. So clearly you believed then that it was illegal.

Just out of curiosity, would you be willing to produce the law that you believe Belschaft broke?

Treason and fraud, as I said.

Well, would you quote it for me here. I am pretty stupid, as I am sure you know, so I doubt I would be able to find the correct provisions on my own.

Or simpler question for you HEM. Do you think a coup is an illegal action in TSP?

Then, do you think a coup is an unethical action in TSP?

Next, do you think that an unethical actions should be illegal in TSP?

How would you feel towards a TSP player, with access to political power, who stated that coups were a perfectly legitimate form of game play?

HEM -- it's treason as "plotting against the Coalition." I've seen that quoted so many times recently that I have it down cold.