Users browsing this thread:

Zak6858 · 01-17-2016, 07:52 PM

I can agree with sandaoguo here and confirm what he is saying. I am not really in any position at the moment but I have had many thoughts about possibly running in elections. However I have never really tried to do anything about it because I would not have enough experience. The ministers and other players make it seem like many of the ministries are hard to be in control of and take up too much time. This is why I have attempted to join the MoRA sonI could gather enough experience to have a chance at being Minister.

I am Zadiner/Zak. Part of Assembly, some other stuff, Founder of some other region.
Hey, I have a bunch of issues. You don't need to care.
Emoji of the week: :dodgy:

***Tsunamy*** · 01-17-2016, 08:39 PM

(01-17-2016, 05:48 PM)sandaoguo Wrote:
(01-15-2016, 11:36 PM)Tsunamy Wrote: But we still need to give people starting positions. Where not going to randomly pull someone from a pool of 5000 nations and be like "Here! Be the minister of Minister of Whatever!" So, I think to say that we'll be better positioned to bring players in is a bit misleading. The delegate will be better positioned to put them where s/he wants them (and dismiss them if s/he wants).

This is just taking the game too seriously. Yes, experience has its value. But it's not like anything any of us do here is all that difficult. So yeah, we can pick complete newcomers and give them head roles in government. Plenty of regions do that!

What I'm seeing in our election for MoFA right now is what we've seen for years here. We're probably going to elect a long-time player from Europeia, who's been gone from TSP for the last 6 months and was never all that active before then, because he has "experience." Instead, what we could be doing is approaching one our new citizens and giving them the job. It's not that radical of an idea, really.

But the way this region elects people is exactly what's wrong with us. We cry all the time about how we need to get new players involved. But then we lock away the actually consequential positions from them. We force them through loops in deputy positions, and the Fellowship Program, where they have to wait months and months and months until we decide they have enough "experience." Feirmont on Discord last night was saying how the stress of the MoFA job would burn players out, and we would be doing a disservice to letting a new player have the position. I think our current system of gaining enough "experience" to be elected is a far bigger disincentive.

Allowing the Delegate to appoint Cabinet members means we break that cycle by force. I have zero faith that the majority of players here are going to change the way they vote in elections. But when the Delegate wants to appoint a new player, that's a big endorsement and I don't foresee the Assembly worried so much about their "experience" relative to other players. So for me, this amendment would be a way to sidestep the long and probably doomed process of changing our regional culture in a way that allows more new people into the top roles of government.

O.M.G. Glen, I legitimately don't know where to start with this. You spent TERMS arguing that there was no one else qualified to be the MoFA, much to my chagrin.

Now, suddenly you're not concerned with experience. Which is it? Because I'm tired for trying to make sense of the argument du jour.

Of all people, I'd be the first to suggest on the job training. However, you're rarely going to find someone who goes from not-interested to fully interested in the time it takes to respond to a telegram. In fact, I'm less concerned about the "experience" than I am about the person feeling competent and wanting to do the job.

With regard to Sopo, he's running because no one else was interested. It has nothing to do with "experience" and if you, Hile or anyone else had a better suggestion, it should've been thrown out. Otherwise, the MoFA election simply undermines the argument that there's a wealth of candidates that just can't get a second look from the electorate.

-tsunamy
[forum admin]

The Serres Republic · 01-18-2016, 12:12 AM

I would just like to address the point brought up in here that newer players wouldn't be comfortable/ able to run in elections if they didn't know veterans.

I personally am not uncomfortable in running for high position elections; however this is not due to power held by veterans the ONLY reasons I am uncomfortable for running for a higher position is that I do not know you all well enough yet/I am not wholly familiar with how higher up officials effectively manage their work here/ I am still learning how to balance TSP politics with RL priorities.

And honestly these issues are not something we can avoid either. It is part of joining a new group or forum in any way. Sure we can put in place an organization that helps new members get used to these things/gain the knowledge they are lacking at the start; (which I totally think we should do btw.) but that is not going to change that sense of uncomfortability. To a new player being the head of MoFA, The Delegate, or even running on the LC, is a scary thing to get used to. They are joinin ga new community and they (for the most part) will want to make sure they are comfortable in it before they start to take an active role in managing it.

That is a fact we will have to accept. New players shouldn't be comfortable running as a delegate (or leader in any way), it is a big responsibility.

Greetings, I am The Serres Republic.

Currently 'The Future Greatest and Most Splendid General of All TSP.'

I know you all look forward to when I complete my grand quest ;P.

Official ‘Most Dedicated Raider’ in all of TSP. Look at me all evil and shtuff ;P

Heck I was MoFA, Now Im PM. I must be loved owo

(This post was last modified: 01-18-2016, 12:16 AM by The Serres Republic.)

***sandaoguo*** · 01-18-2016, 03:43 PM

(01-17-2016, 08:39 PM)Tsunamy Wrote: O.M.G. Glen, I legitimately don't know where to start with this. You spent TERMS arguing that there was no one else qualified to be the MoFA, much to my chagrin.

I said experience was important when I was running, because I had it, and most of my opponents would have reversed what I was working on. Like Feirmont said on Discord, running on "experience" is a sure way to have a strong campaign. That's political gaming.

What I'm being right now is honest and candid. There's nothing going on in FA that needs somebody with "experience." NS Gameplay is practically frozen. It's no mystery why the past few MoFA elections have been entirely focused on domestic issues. So right now isn't a time when "experience" is that valuable. Now's a time when we should be experimenting and taking chances, when the stakes are so low.

(01-17-2016, 08:39 PM)Tsunamy Wrote: Of all people, I'd be the first to suggest on the job training. However, you're rarely going to find someone who goes from not-interested to fully interested in the time it takes to respond to a telegram. In fact, I'm less concerned about the "experience" than I am about the person feeling competent and wanting to do the job.

I don't believe that there's nobody among our new citizens who wouldn't be interested in the job.

(01-17-2016, 08:39 PM)Tsunamy Wrote: Otherwise, the MoFA election simply undermines the argument that there's a wealth of candidates that just can't get a second look from the electorate.

What I do believe is that elections are scary and new players rarely run in them. We're not helping ourselves by maintaining a culture of having to work in low positions for months and months until you can say you have "experience."

The reality is that this is a game and it's not a particularly difficult one either.

What does a Delegate do? They send mass TGs about other ministers' events, and try to get people interested in the region. Sometimes they have a big idea they try to see through. (And having a big idea doesn't require years of playing the game.) Every now and then, they hold a Cabinet meeting and see where everybody else is.

Regional Affairs? They hold games and events, ie. open forums and create interesting threads that draw some people in.

Foreign Affairs? Sometimes write treaties, which isn't difficult given all the templates out there. They let other regions know what we're doing, basically advertising us. If they're into Gameplay politics (which does take time to learn, but it's not something that can really be "taught"), they use their position for politicking. It's really what you make of it.

Army? This is the most difficult one where experience actually does matter, because it's not an abstract job. You have to know about game functions, update timing, and you can to get everybody online at the same time. This is probably the only position where experience is really that valuable.

But really, none of this is all that difficult. TSP still will be standing if a green player messes up on the job. That's dynamism. People who've never held a big fancy government position in a GCR have been creating UCRs for over a decade, and they've been pretty successful at it without having experience beforehand. So in the grand scheme of things, there's no reason why a new player shouldn't hold any position in our government.

**Rebeltopia** · 01-18-2016, 03:44 PM

I'm going to look at it this way... For years, the delegate platforms were all about how they saw the cabinet shaping, and their views on how those cabinet members should run their office... With this proposal, that will now allow the delegate that power.

"...if you're normal, the crowd will accept you. But if you're deranged, the crowd will make you their leader." - Christopher Titus
Deranged in NS since 2011

One and ONLY minion of LadyRebels
The OUTRAGEOUS CRAZY other half of LadyElysium

POSITIONS! POSITIONS, EVERYONE!!

Quotes

The Serres Republic · 01-18-2016, 04:50 PM

Sand, while your points make a lot of sense in theory, they are flawed in practice. Honestly, unless you blatantly communicate that high up positions are easy to maintain, no new players will have the courage to run. However even that is a mistake, because if people start assuming that these jobs are easy they will approach them unprepared and do absolutely nothing due to laziness or a lack of know how.

People should be expected to hang out on the forums for a while and participate before they get head positions. Those positions should be held by people who dedicate significant time to TSP and have proven that they care enough to give it their all. It is a smack in the face to those players that work their butts off daily and really want to see TSP succeed when joe mc shmoe shoes up and suddenly becomes delegate or whatever have you.

You also need to stop dismissing this as 'just a game'. It is a community that was built and has been maintained through care, hard work, and teamwork. It really is amazing. The people that work to make TSP better and have worked for that goal have elevated this beyond the status of 'game'. It is a home, a place where anyone can come and meet amazing people that are passionate and inspiring. I know it triggers the hell out of me to see you label it like that, and I am pretty darn certain a lot of other people don't like it none either.

At the end of the day, all that really needs to happen is for those veteran players to take the time to make newbies feel heard and valued and I think that a huge majority of vets do just that. Newbies don't need big shiny positions to feel like they matter and honestly you will find that a vast majority don't want them right away. Whether it is easily manageable or not, new players will be intimidated. I know I am. But that is not a bad thing, sure being a delegate is something I know I can't pull off right now, but I know that Hileville is a fantastic guy for the position. His experience and compassion makes me feel comfortable as a new player. Sopo seems like he will be very good as well and scyllz is freaking awesome. These experienced, yet open minded individuals help to create a strong backbone by efficiently completing their duties and spending the rest of their time pushing for positive change. Experience is good, not bad.

Greetings, I am The Serres Republic.

Currently 'The Future Greatest and Most Splendid General of All TSP.'

I know you all look forward to when I complete my grand quest ;P.

Official ‘Most Dedicated Raider’ in all of TSP. Look at me all evil and shtuff ;P

Heck I was MoFA, Now Im PM. I must be loved owo

Punchwood · 01-18-2016, 06:29 PM

Most people who support this keep talking about how this will give the Delegate power, stop treating the Delegate like it should be an all powerful god. Allowing one person to make all the decisions for us is called a Dictatorship even if you do elected him/her once every 4 months.

Europeian Ambassador to The South Pacific
Former Local Council Member
Former Minister of Regional Affairs
Former High Court Justice

Punchwood · 01-18-2016, 06:31 PM

(01-15-2016, 03:20 PM)Ryccia Wrote: Motion to vote.

(01-15-2016, 06:54 PM)Hileville Wrote: I'm going to go ahead and second Ryccia's motion to vote.

A vote must now legally happen.

Europeian Ambassador to The South Pacific
Former Local Council Member
Former Minister of Regional Affairs
Former High Court Justice

Lord Ravenclaw · 01-18-2016, 06:39 PM

Good. I'll add my second.

[Image: R3G1C7X.gif] [Image: aPo7ydn.png?1] [Image: R3G1C7X.gif]

Hileville · 01-18-2016, 06:45 PM

(01-15-2016, 10:43 PM)Hileville Wrote:
(01-15-2016, 02:02 AM)Hileville Wrote: Here is a full bill for consideration. This should cover the Election Act and some clarifying provisions about the current terms and such. I should also point out that this does not include anything about the Line of Succession so that would still be in place as is. With the Vice Delegate becoming Delegate if their is a vacancy in that office. I think we need to discuss that and how we want to handle it.

Quote:
Appointed Cabinet Omnibus Bill

Section 1 - Amendments to the Charter

Article 5: Executive

Section 1 - The Delegate and Vice Delegate
1. The Delegate will serve as Head of State and Government of the South Pacific.
2. The Delegate may implement policies regarding regional message board adverts and spam and expel recruiters for violating those policies.
3. The Delegate is responsible for making sure all nations abide by the Endorsement Cap as established and enforced by the Committee for State Security.
4. The Delegate may eject nations when permitted by the Charter and Code of Laws.
5. With the majority approval of the Committee for State Security taken by a vote, the Delegate may declare a State of Emergency with reasonable justification that a threat to regional security is imminent, subjected to provisions granted by Article 6, Section 3 of the Charter.
6. The Vice Delegate will hold the second highest amount of endorsements in the region at any given time.
7. The Vice Delegate will be responsible for reviewing Citizenship Applications.
8. In the event that the Delegate resigns, is recalled, or otherwise unable to carry out their duties the Vice Delegate will immediately assume the Office of the Delegate.
9. The procedures for the election of the Delegate and Vice Delegate must be defined in Law.

Section 2 - Cabinet of the South Pacific
1. The Delegate will appoint citizens to serve as members of the Cabinet of the South Pacific.
2. The Delegate must appoint citizens to head foreign, military, and internal affairs. The Delegate will have the ability to staff and create other Ministries.
3. Each appointed Minister will be considered a Senior Cabinet Official and serve at the pleasure of the Delegate. Each Senior Official may appoint Deputies who serve at the pleasure of the respective Minister.
4. The Delegate must present the appointments of all Senior Cabinet Officials to the Assembly to be approved via a majority vote.

Article 3: Legislature

Section 2 - Chair of the Assembly and Duties of the Chair.
3. The Chair of the Assembly will serve as the Legislative Liaison between the Cabinet and Assembly and have Junior Cabinet status.
4. The Chair will serve a term lasting three months.

Section 2 - Amendments to the Election Act

Article 1 - General Elections

1. Elections for the Delegate, Vice Delegate, and Chair of the Assembly shall commence on the fifteenth of every January, April, July, and November.
3. Terms for the Delegate, Vice Delegate, and Chair of the Assembly shall commence on the first of every February, May, August, and December, while terms for Local Councillors on the fifteenth of every June, September, and January.
5. No one can run for or hold more than one Executive, Legislative, Judicial, or Local Council position at any given time.

Article 2 - Position Specificities

1. The Delegate and Vice Delegate will run on a joint ticket.
2. Cabinet offices will be voted on separately.
3. Voters during Delegate, Vice Delegate, and Chair of the Assembly Elections shall list all candidates from their most to least preferred on their ballot.
4. The winning candidates during a Delegate, Vice Delegate, and Chair of the Assembly race shall be the candidate, when paired up against any other candidate, who would surpass any other candidate in terms of support; if no such candidate exists, the winning candidate shall be determined by an instant-runoff vote. In the event of a tie the election for that office will be restarted immediately.
5. In all elections an option to re-open nominations will be included. For non-judicial elections, If this option receives the most votes the nomination period for that office will be restarted.

Article 3 - Vacancies

1. In the event that no candidate runs for an available office the newly elected Cabinet will appoint a Citizen to fill the vacancy.
1. Vacancies in office occur when the office holder resigns, is recalled, or no longer holds citizenship. In the event of a vacancy in office a special election will begin within 72 hours of the office becoming vacant, unless the vacancy occurs in the month prior to the start of the term for the position in question; in this case the Cabinet will appoint a Citizen to fill the vacated position for the remainder of the term.

Section 3 - General and Special Provisions
1. The Chair of the Assembly will ensure that all amendments are updated and the numbering is consistent for any amendment that causes changes to the numbering.
2. The existing terms for the Cabinet and Chair of the Assembly will be extended by one month to match the new 3 month terms.
3. Upon passage the Chair will lose senior Cabinet permissions and gain junior Cabinet level permissions.
4. During the remainder of the current term if the office of an elected Minister becomes vacant the Delegate will appoint a successor with Assembly approval as defined law.

I'd like to make a small change if it is okay with the Chair and then Motion this version to vote.

The change I made was to the appointment of MoFA and MoA. I have changed the text to allow for a little flexibility in names for those Ministries. I've also added internal affairs which would cover all possible regional affairs areas.

For the record I withdrew my second and motioned this version to vote.