Users browsing this thread:

Ditortilla · 05-14-2014, 04:34 PM

(05-14-2014, 03:46 PM)Belschaft Wrote: . There shouldn't be anyone in the CSS who isn't a fit and proper person to assume the Vice-Delegacy or even the Delegacy. That's why political reliability should be as much a criteria for CSS membership as existing security experience.<snip>

<snip>. I can't think of a single CSS member who I would be uncomfortable with as VD or Delegate.

I realise this is slightly off topic but what if there is a conflict between CSS and a legitimately elected Delegate and Vice Delgate?

If the Delegate is impeached would it also mean that the VD would loose their job too? Or Would they ascend to the post with a VD of the CSS's choosing?

***Kris Kringle*** · 05-14-2014, 04:38 PM

The Delegate can be recalled. If that happened then the Vice Delegate would become the new Delegate. That happened when Milograd was recalled and Brutland and Norden replaced him.

Former Delegate of the South Pacific
Posts outside High Court venues should be taken as those of any other legislator.
I do not participate in the regional server, but I am happy to talk through instant messaging or on the forum.

Legal Resources:
THE MATT-DUCK Law Archive | Mavenu Diplomatic Archive | Rules of the High Court | Case Submission System | Online Rulings Consultation System

***sandaoguo*** · 05-14-2014, 04:41 PM

@Ditorilla: The Vice Delegate would assume the office of the Delegate if the Delegate is recalled. If there was worthy cause for both to be removed, the Assembly would remove both. Otherwise, the Assembly would trust that the VD is good enough to serve as Delegate.

---

Here is my proposal for changing the line of succession:

The Charter is amended by adding the following section to Article 5:

Section 6 – Line of Succession

1. In the event that the Delegate is removed from office, resigns from office, or is banned from the World Assembly, the Vice Delegate shall immediately assume the office of the Delegate.
2. In the event that the office of the Vice Delegate is vacant, the Delegate shall appoint his or her Vice Delegate, who shall take office only with a majority of support from the Assembly.
3. The line of succession in the event that the offices of the Delegate and the Vice Delegate are vacant shall be determined by descending order of endorsement levels within the CSS.
??. In the event that the Delegate is ejected from the World Assembly, but not banned, the Vice Delegate shall immediately and temporarily assume the role of the Delegate in game, until such a time that the elected Delegate is readmitted into the World Assembly and gains the necessary endorsements to again become Delegate in game. The elected Delegate will still hold his or her authorities granted under law. ??

The Charter is further amended by striking out Article 5, Section 2.9, as well as Article 6, Section 2.5.

The Code of Laws is amended by striking out Article 3, and changing Article 1, part 13 to the following:

13. Except for the offices of the Delegate and the Vice Delegate, vacancies in office occur when the office holder resigns, is recalled, or no longer holds citizenship. In the event of a vacancy in office a special election will begin within 72 hours of the office becoming vacant, unless the vacancy occurs in the month prior to the start of the term for the position in question; in this case the Cabinet will appoint a Citizen to fill the vacated position for the remainder of the term.

----

The ?? clause would be a rare occurrence, but not totally unprecedented in this game. I'm not sure if the Delegate should remain the legal Delegate, though, if they're ejected from the WA for rules violations.

***Kris Kringle*** · 05-14-2014, 04:46 PM

Rules violations according to the Code of Laws are punishable by automatic ejection from the region, theoretically at least.

Former Delegate of the South Pacific
Posts outside High Court venues should be taken as those of any other legislator.
I do not participate in the regional server, but I am happy to talk through instant messaging or on the forum.

Legal Resources:
THE MATT-DUCK Law Archive | Mavenu Diplomatic Archive | Rules of the High Court | Case Submission System | Online Rulings Consultation System

**Belschaft** · 05-14-2014, 04:50 PM

(05-14-2014, 04:13 PM)Sandaoguo Wrote:
(05-14-2014, 02:56 PM)Belschaft Wrote: I can see the validity of those arguments, but it wasn't what was intended. Obviously intentions can change, but I still think the benefits of seamless and immediate transition (at least in legal terms) of Delegacy/Vice-Delegacy out weigh the potential downfalls. I think part of the reason why our views differ is that we conceive of the Vice-Delegacy and CSS in different terms; I've always seen them (and in terms of powers constructed them) as a check on the delegate, rather than aides to them. The Vice-Delegate is principally a security position.

Our electoral system was poorly designed, if the intent was for the Vice Delegate to serve as a check on the Delegate. They run on a unified platform, so naturally they will agree with each other on what the agenda of the government will be. They also tend to be friends. Those two things really decrease the likelihood of a Vice Delegate checking the power of the Delegate.

Regardless of intent, the political reality is that the Delegate and the Vice Delegate need to be on the same page, otherwise we introduce dysfunction into the Cabinet. Running on the same ticket is the best way to ensure that. So replacing a Vice Delegate should take that into account.

Dysfunction is always possible in our system of government. If you want to eliminate that possibility entirely you might as well abolish elections for Ministers and gift all executive power to the Delegate.

_{Minister of Media, Subversion and Sandwich Making}
^{Associate Justice of the High Court and Senior Moderator}

PREVIOUS ROLES

***Tsunamy*** · 05-14-2014, 04:59 PM

In some ways, I think this gets to role of the VD in general, anyhow. If we're assuming that the CSS is capable of being Delegate/VD, maybe we should eliminate the VD position in it's entirety and assume the highest ranking CSS member can act as VD?

**Belschaft** · 05-14-2014, 05:10 PM

Under the circumstances of the ?? clause the Delegate would remain Delegate, though they would not hold the seat itself. The office of the Delegate stems from election, not from any action of the game mods, and a Delegate permanently banned from the WA would remain Delegate legally (at present at least). However, I imagine they would promptly resign or be recalled. As such, the ?? is redundant. Article 13 doesn't need changing as a result.

I'm not convinced as to the idea of changing the way we replace Vice-Delegates, but if we did I'd prefer your proposed section 6 to look something like this;

Quote:Section 6 – Line of Succession

1. In the event that the Delegate is removed from office, resigns from office, or is banned from the World Assembly, the Vice Delegate shall immediately assume the office of the Delegate.
2. In the event that the office of the Vice Delegate is vacant, the Delegate shall nominate a replacement, who must be confirmed with a 75% majority vote by the Assembly.
3. Until such time as a replacement Vice Delegate is confirmed the highest ranking member of the CSS line of succession shall serve as Acting Vice Delegate.
4. In the event that the offices of the Delegate and Vice Delegate are vacant at the same time then the highest ranking member of the CSS line of succession shall assume the office of Delegate and the next ranking member the office of Vice Delegate.

There are very few circumstances where the Delegacy and Vice Delegacy could fall vacant at the same time - most of them involve a GCR war - and none of them are ones where an election would be a good idea. The additions of clauses 3 and 4 thus preserve the stability of instant succession by a CSS member when really need and ensure that there is always a Vice Delegate, if only an acting one.

_{Minister of Media, Subversion and Sandwich Making}
^{Associate Justice of the High Court and Senior Moderator}

PREVIOUS ROLES

**Belschaft** · 05-14-2014, 05:12 PM

(05-14-2014, 04:59 PM)Tsunamy Wrote: In some ways, I think this gets to role of the VD in general, anyhow. If we're assuming that the CSS is capable of being Delegate/VD, maybe we should eliminate the VD position in it's entirety and assume the highest ranking CSS member can act as VD?

I'd prefer to have an elected rather than appointed official first in line. The CSS line of succession has only been used once and I really don't expect for a CSS member to ever have to become delegate again. It's there for security purposes, and I don't like the idea of involving it in politics.

_{Minister of Media, Subversion and Sandwich Making}
^{Associate Justice of the High Court and Senior Moderator}

PREVIOUS ROLES

(This post was last modified: 05-14-2014, 05:13 PM by Gordon Freeman.)

Sir Pitt · 05-14-2014, 05:36 PM

Given what has been said previously regarding the need for the Vice-Delegate to be on the same wavelength as the Delegate, why does the Assembly have to give 75% approval?

***sandaoguo*** · 05-14-2014, 05:53 PM

(05-14-2014, 04:50 PM)Belschaft Wrote: Dysfunction is always possible in our system of government. If you want to eliminate that possibility entirely you might as well abolish elections for Ministers and gift all executive power to the Delegate.

Of course it's always a possibility, but I don't see any reason why we would require the Delegate and the Vice Delegate to run on the same ticket if not to ensure that both are on the same page. There was a discussion about this over on the old forums, when somebody suggested allowing the Delegate and Vice Delegate to run separately. It just seems foreign to me that the Vice Delegate serves an 'adversarial' checking role on the Delegate, when they literally run on the same platform.

Regarding your changes, I don't know why we must have a Vice Delegate at all times. But I don't see the danger in a CSS member temporarily becoming the Vice Delegate, until the Delegate can confirm his or her nominee. I do think 75% is an unnecessarily high threshold, when 50%+1 is all that's needed to be elected in the first place.