Belschaft said he sent Vietnam's deposition to Tsunamy. If it's true, why didn't we ever see it? If it was a lie, why not confront him over it? It seems the SPSF intelligence programme had been ongoing for the past few ministries. Why didn't we contact former ministers to see what its extent was, and whether Belschaft had been acting in line with the overall expectations of the programme? There was a suggestion to contact Neo Kervoskia, to verify the information in the logs we received. Maybe he would lie to us? Perhaps, but that was still a necessary part of our due dilligence.

You only interviewed Vietnam because we kept pushing for some kind of investigation. You kept claiming that allowing Belschaft to respond here in the Assembly was enough to consider him questioned and self-defended, for the purposes of the investigation mandated by the Security Powers Act. You outright refused to contact Neo Kervoskia. You kept claiming that there was no need to investigate, even when confronted with the blatantly obvious fact that the law mandated an investigation.

Don't tell me that you conducted a thorough investigation, because we both know, if you had had your way, we wouldn't even had done the meager questioning that we managed to force out of you. If your case was as strong as you claimed it was, it would have shown in the investigation. If it wasn't, then that would have been a clear indication that Belschaft did not have to be punished in the first place.

Am I the only one it was sent to? The way people talked — I thought everyone had it?

I was never informed that I became the facilitator of the entire investigation.

I'm going to call BS on that given this exchange weeks ago.

Farengeto-04/08/2017
@hierocles @jui ji-tsu So there's a couple of depositions from Vietnam you guys have that we still haven't seen. >.>

jui ji-tsu-04/08/2017
Would someone like to give them to us?
Or are we just going to sit on them?

Reply

I mean I disagree with accusing Bel of treason considering {...} and have also stated publicly that I don't support a ban. That's a result of me not believing in any way that the region has strict values, we have loose values let's be honest.

However, I would like to know who or what determines "proper investigation." Also, 2 out of 6 members saying something doesn't make it absolute truth because some people happen to agree with them.

Or should we now investigate the CRS? dun dun dun....

On a more serious note more information and clarity about the investigation would be great and within a reasonable time frame. Possibly though this speaks to the CRS as an institution having to find that happy medium.

Escade

~ Positions Held in TSP ~
Delegate | Vice Delegate 
Minister of Regional Affairs, | Minister of Foreign Affairs | Minister of Military Affairs
~ The Sparkly One ~

My Pinterest

 

Reply

If you have one side claiming that no investigation is needed, and then they release a report with their conclusions, I think it's pretty safe to assume no proper investigation was conducted.

Former Delegate of the South Pacific
Posts outside High Court venues should be taken as those of any other legislator.
I do not participate in the regional server, but I am happy to talk through instant messaging or on the forum.

Legal Resources:
THE MATT-DUCK Law Archive | Mavenu Diplomatic Archive | Rules of the High Court | Case Submission System | Online Rulings Consultation System

Reply

Belschaft said he sent Vietnam's deposition to Tsunamy. If it's true, why didn't we ever see it? If it was a lie, why not confront him over it? It seems the SPSF intelligence programme had been ongoing for the past few ministries. Why didn't we contact former ministers to see what its extent was, and whether Belschaft had been acting in line with the overall expectations of the programme? There was a suggestion to contact Neo Kervoskia, to verify the information in the logs we received. Maybe he would lie to us? Perhaps, but that was still a necessary part of our due dilligence.

You only interviewed Vietnam because we kept pushing for some kind of investigation. You kept claiming that allowing Belschaft to respond here in the Assembly was enough to consider him questioned and self-defended, for the purposes of the investigation mandated by the Security Powers Act. You outright refused to contact Neo Kervoskia. You kept claiming that there was no need to investigate, even when confronted with the blatantly obvious fact that the law mandated an investigation.

Don't tell me that you conducted a thorough investigation, because we both know, if you had had your way, we wouldn't even had done the meager questioning that we managed to force out of you. If your case was as strong as you claimed it was, it would have shown in the investigation. If it wasn't, then that would have been a clear indication that Belschaft did not have to be punished in the first place.

Am I the only one it was sent to? The way people talked — I thought everyone had it?

I was never informed that I became the facilitator of the entire investigation.

I'm going to call BS on that given this exchange weeks ago.

Farengeto-04/08/2017
@hierocles @jui ji-tsu So there's a couple of depositions from Vietnam you guys have that we still haven't seen. >.>

jui ji-tsu-04/08/2017
Would someone like to give them to us?
Or are we just going to sit on them?

That's fair — I didn't realize that was directed at me. When it was posted that I was sent it — I have it.

Although — looking over intelligence the thread, Glen actually posted the deposition, as well.

-tsunamy
[forum admin]

Reply

Glen posted a deposition he made with Vietnam. He didn't post the deposition that Belschaft had conducted.

Former Delegate of the South Pacific
Posts outside High Court venues should be taken as those of any other legislator.
I do not participate in the regional server, but I am happy to talk through instant messaging or on the forum.

Legal Resources:
THE MATT-DUCK Law Archive | Mavenu Diplomatic Archive | Rules of the High Court | Case Submission System | Online Rulings Consultation System

Reply

Saying that no investigation took place is false because an investigation did take place. In fact I know of at least one CRS member who conducted intel\interview\discussion with at least two people.

Each CRS member is accountable for this investigation. So if you're on the CRS and saying nothing happened - what were you doing? Twiddling your thumbs while someone else dealt with the problem? This has been ongoing for a while. Why didn't you take initiative and interview NK? The CRS is not "Tsu do things."

If the other members were not conducting this nebulous and clearly undefined "investigation," what were the members who did not partake in that part of it do? Why didn't you take initiative or speak up clearly? What can you do now?

Here's my view. The CRS is an institution that is being established. We need to work with this institution and help make it viable. Perhaps we don't agree with a particular decision in its entirety but rather then descending into in-fighting and toxicity - maybe work together to improve things.

At the end of the day TSP is a community and it would be nice if we could see the best in each other instead of resorting to the worst.

Also my love for Tsu is undying - he has a good heart <3

Escade

~ Positions Held in TSP ~
Delegate | Vice Delegate 
Minister of Regional Affairs, | Minister of Foreign Affairs | Minister of Military Affairs
~ The Sparkly One ~

My Pinterest

 

(This post was last modified: 04-25-2017, 12:17 AM by Escade.)

Reply

To be perfectly clear, this entire situation is revolving around this thread. (This one post really — http://tspforums.xyz/thread-5014-post-15...#pid152510).

After I yelled publicly at Belschaft, I asked the CRS if we could vote since we had already conducted the investigation. I had no clue this was the root of Kris/Far's the entire issue until tonight.

I've been concerned with the extensive time, but — as eventually the thread will show — when it was suggested to talk to NK and Vietnam, I asked how the CRS wanted to go about doing this. 


I asked how the CRS wanted to do it the April 8. I was barely at my computer from then through April 16, due to RL.

Admittedly, I assumed we had conducted the investigation and the writeup presented was a result of that (that was clearly dumb of me) and I pushed to get a response from Bel because the entire process had taken entirely too long. 

I then said I would agree to the stipulations since they were what I had been asking of Bel for weeks. There was a discussion over the meanings of clause (b) and (e) within the security powers, and I said I didn't care that I'd approve either one.

I lay this out — while I hope people can eventually see this thread — to point out that I wasn't just voting for anything, as has been suggested. I was relaying on the other CRS members to pull their weight since I'm delegate and was quite busy IRL. The initial discussion remains a point of high concern (again) so much so that even Bel understands the concern.

To wrap back to my last post — this is why I didn't post Bel's deposition of vietnam ... because I forgot I had it! Glen did post it, but I forgot it was even sent to me until I checked my inbox when it was posted that I had it tonight.

-tsunamy
[forum admin]

Reply

Glen posted a deposition he made with Vietnam. He didn't post the deposition that Belschaft had conducted.

Glen posted it here: http://tspforums.xyz/thread-4976-post-15...#pid152729

-tsunamy
[forum admin]

(This post was last modified: 04-25-2017, 12:01 AM by Tsunamy.)

Reply

I request that the Chair move this thread, this thread, this thread, and this thread to the main Assembly forum.

There is no longer any sufficient reason to deprive the rest of the region of knowledge of these proceedings.

Having looked into the legality of my own request, I have determined that public release of these threads "without the express written permission of the Cabinet" could constitute espionage under Article 1, Section 3 of the Criminal Code. I will therefore not be releasing them, and will not be seeking permission from the Cabinet for their release in my capacity as Deputy Chair during this interim period. That will be up to the next Chair following the election.

Reply