| [Treaty Proposal/PASSED] Treaty of Capricorn (with The Pacific) |
I don't know if it's because I've kept in better touch with the Cabinet or not, but this doesn't come as a complete surprise to me. Although, I didn't know we had been drafting this formally.
As someone who has long been suspicious of NPO and most non-democratic regions, this treaty skirts the major issue since the Pacific would be recognizing our offsite governance. I also see no reason not to sign a treaty because it might antagonize Balder, Laz, et al. I think there's a difference between signing something like this and going on the NS Gameplay forms and bitterly fighting with people. While I'm subject to be persuaded, I'm in favor of this. And, kudos to the Cabinet for taking this leap.
-tsunamy
[forum admin] (03-10-2018, 01:42 PM)sandaoguo Wrote: I campaigned on taking bold and provocative steps in our foreign affairs to combat against that sphere of NS. The Minister of Foreign Affairs, when asked directly how he viewed that call to action, said this: Hi Friend I stand by my previous statement. I'm not sure why every FA action has to be perceived by our supposed enemies as some move of mobilizing against them. I couldn't be less arsed about what Balder or Osiris are thinking. My goal with this treaty negotiation was to iron out an agreement which could bring mutual benefit to The Coalition and The Order, without compromising our general values. That sphere thinks that a TSPer even breathing in their direction is antagonizing them. I prefer to set more realistic standards. I'm bolstering The South Pacific. It's not for anybody else or against anyone in specific. This treaty proposal is the culmination of extensive work by both sides to create an agreement with a respective hegemon of the GCR Sphere. Despite our ideological differences in regimes, the New Pacific Order and The Coalition of The South Pacific are two of the longest-lasting governments in the GCRs, both lauded for their dedication to their region. In addition, our two militaries are at-present likely the two most elite of the GCR's militaries, we have already cooperated extensively in the past, and this would enable for even further cooperation between our two regions. My one concern in the process was ensuring that our forum-recognized government and their game-recognized government would both be effectively protected in the treaty. I think both of our governments are protected, it sets up many provisions and safeguards for that, and is ultimately a treaty that could serve as a template to longstanding cooperation between other regimes of different ideologies.
I'll address most things thematically rather than in order.
On mistrust: It helps understanding how the New Pacific Order works. Their modus operandi isn't that of power-hungry imperialists, but rather of "GCRs for GCRs", having powerful GCRs not subservient to UCR-based interests. Of course, NPO has drawn ire at times, and it's surely fair to say that their approach to things hasn't always been the best. Nonetheless, the above principles, even if at times implemented wrongly or distorted by greedy senators, have established a consistent theme. We are, of course, a GCR, and (despite hollow rhetoric by some of our distractors) not overrun by any userite elements. We are not a target. We are a friend. On the issue of them not being a democracy: Having same or similar governments matters less than whether or not the signatories mutually respect the form of government. As it turns out, our two regions have the longest extant GCR governments, with the Coalition dating to June 2003 and the NPO dating to August 2003, each with our respective forms of governance being deeply entrenched in our culture. TP doesn't want to make us a meritocratic autocracy, and we don't want to make them a liberal democracy. On strategic value: There are many individual data points that make this a good idea, and I'm sure I will forget one or two trying to list them all. We're codifying a great and ever-improving relationship, generally bolstering our FA portfolio, and also significantly increasing our security with the mutual defense mechanism (NPO can mobilize ridiculous updater numbers on a whim if necessary, it's amazing). (03-10-2018, 01:44 PM)Belschaft Wrote: TSP has historically been fairly friendly with NPO, and has been allied with them before. Excluding the 2013-15 period between Milo's coup of TSP and the creation and collapse of the "NLO" we've never been particularly hostile to them, or them to us; the purges it led to cleared out most of the people in NPO we had problems with, and relations have consistently improved since then. Indeed, and we even addressed two aspects of the 2013 breakdown in the treaty. You will probably remember well their stated reasons for not supporting the Coalition against Milograd in 2013. First, the issue of conflicting supremacy paradigms is addressed in meticulous detail in Article I (I had talked to none other than Ivan Moldavi himself about this very issue). Second, something like Antariel's shenanigans from back then are protected through Article II.4. (03-10-2018, 01:22 PM)Farengeto Wrote: On a secondary note, this is more of that secret out of nowhere diplomatic stuff there were issues over during the election. Something so far out of our normal relations is pretty much out of nowhere, with no warning. Adding to what Escade said, it's diplomatic protocol to not announce ongoing negotiations. I really don't think this is fair criticism. ![[Image: XXPV74Y.png?1]](https://i.imgur.com/XXPV74Y.png?1)
Okay.
I'm still on the "Re-opening negotiations with TWP" FA stance, but whatever.  The NPO is weird, but is a great ally to have with us.
Midwesterner. Political nerd. Chipotle enthusiast.
Minister of Culture of the South Pacific // Former Prime Minister
(03-10-2018, 08:12 PM)North Prarie Wrote: Okay. The ongoing issue with TWP had been that they only recognize in-game mechanics thus rendering any agreement moot. Of course, there have been other issues but ...
-tsunamy
[forum admin]
I'm going to keep this short as FA has always been my weak point in this game.
The NPO probably cannot be trusted. However, they have never, as far as I know, been overtly against TSP, or tried to hurt the coalition in anyway. Sure, the NPO aren't the most similar region to us, and can be, as NP so eloquently put it, "weird" , but hell, that doesn't mean we shouldn't cooperate with them. They have been a useful ally in the past, and I can't see how this could affect us negatively in anyway.
John Hills- President of Ausstan
I can't speak with any authority on history or past issues. (Or as NP puts it 'weird'ness) I leave those comments to those who have been involved for longer and are more involved in those aspects of the regions.
So my comments are limited to the drafted treaty; although, if it needs to be noted, I generally agree with the comments of Escade. I think it is well written and as any good treaty should have sufficient "wiggle-room" to meet our own needs. Article V Sect 3 potentailly could include a sanction rather than termination of treaty, however i am rather nonplussed by the need for amended wording. Edit: I am generally supportive of the overall aims.
Thank you for putting this together. I think it's in TSP's best interest to have productive relationships with as many Pacific's that we can and that this is a step in the right direction.
You'll have my vote 
The 16th Delegate of The South Pacific
(03-10-2018, 06:57 PM)Tim Wrote: I stand by my previous statement. I'm not sure why every FA action has to be perceived by our supposed enemies as some move of mobilizing against them. I couldn't be less arsed about what Balder or Osiris are thinking. My goal with this treaty negotiation was to iron out an agreement which could bring mutual benefit to The Coalition and The Order, without compromising our general values. And when I negotiated treaties with TRR and Lazarus, I also said I wasn't sure why that would necessarily lead to pissing off TNI. I don't think it's okay for you to play coy here, Tim. Allying with the NPO is meant to send a direct signal to Balder, Osiris, TWP, etc. -- don't f*** with us, we've got the NPO on our side now. I know this as your own adviser. The Cabinet should be honest with the Assembly about what this alliance means for TSP. There will be consequences for us. While I'm gung-ho about forming a bloc against the Indy/imp/raider sphere, I'd prefer the Assembly go into it knowing that's what they're doing. Rather than the Cabinet trying to pull the wool over the eyes by saying allying with the NPO is no biggie and has nothing to do with external affairs.
(03-11-2018, 11:59 AM)sandaoguo Wrote: The Cabinet should be honest with the Assembly about what this alliance means for TSP. There will be consequences for us. While I'm gung-ho about forming a bloc against the Indy/imp/raider sphere, I'd prefer the Assembly go into it knowing that's what they're doing. Rather than the Cabinet trying to pull the wool over the eyes by saying allying with the NPO is no biggie and has nothing to do with external affairs. What are the potential consequences? (Either from the Cabinet or as you understand them, Glen.)
-tsunamy
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