Well, keeping it suspended for a year would be absurd and I doubt either party would let that stand, but I (personally) wouldn't be blanket opposed to a limit here.

Sounds good.

Is there a specific timeline for how long we need to debate this?

-tsunamy
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Well, keeping it suspended for a year would be absurd and I doubt either party would let that stand, but I (personally) wouldn't be blanket opposed to a limit here.

Sounds good.

Is there a specific timeline for how long we need to debate this?

You mean the treaty itself? It's standardized at minimum 5 days debate, 5 days voting.

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TNP: UPPERCUT was TP+TNP+TSP. If they had an issue, that may not have happened.

Fwiw, this was like 7 months ago and all GCRs were invited.

If an outdated former MoFA can give an educated opinion... How TNP and TEP react in the long term depends on the dynamics within their alliance networks, both formal and informal.

WALL ties TNP to Balder, who will hate this. And TNP of today is more leaning towards the raider side of Independence than it was a year ago. (Can we just adopt a left-right spectrum, instead of Independent/imperialist/raider? ) Additionally, TNP is tied to Europeia, which is a region that includes a lot of cosmopolitan/cross-over players of the anti-TSP persuasion.

TEP is recently allied with TWP, and there's a decent amount of cross-over between those regions. Their whole FA program is kind of in flux, I think, because Yuno has been on an alliance-making spree. They've been taking the Balder/TWP/Osiris side of things lately, which makes me think that's who Yuno is spending a lot of time talking to. While their government isn't a dictatorship, there's aren't too many players there who we would really consider allies. (Maybe Tim, who is a Magister there ) TEP could be swayed towards the Balder/TWP/Osiris (again, we need a good name for this bloc) side part of this Coldish War, if we're not there really offering a better alternative. That's been an ongoing struggle, I believe.

Going by how TSP has performed in these PR fights in the past several months, the outlook is grim. We haven't really won many, particularly because the Cabinet tended to prefer... doing nothing in response to anti-TSP propaganda campaigns. My bet is 60/40 that TEP ends up siding with the anti-TSP bloc, if push comes to shove. TNP is still priding itself on being a big-tent Independent region and reflecting that in their FA, so I think they're more likely to stake a neutral position.

Bear in mind, our transformation after the TRR/Laz treaties wasn't immediate. It took a good year or two, and then of course we only lost our last Independent-imperialist ally last year. What happens in TNP and TEP could take time, which gives us time to counter the Balder/TWP/Osiris bloc.

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While I must disagree with Glen over his support of the treaty, I do however agree with him on a major point: we are losing propaganda fights. In recent months it appears as though much of GP tends to be listing to the Balder/Osiris/Laz bloc in these PR instances. I can't speak for why this is happening but looking at, and following GP makes it appear like our ablity to win a PR battle is diminished. 

This will, by the very nature of FA become a PR fight and I believe Glen is right, we will likely find it difficult to win. Without full, unwavering support from the NPO in defending this and support from our GCR allies, I believe the outlook in a PR fight is grim. I personally believe our own treaties will stand and our alliances will last, however, the perception of us in our allies and NSGP as a whole is likely to change as a result of this is we don't play our cards perfectly. At the end of the day, FA is a battle of image.

I support the treaty but I believe this will require a strong presence on GP from us in order to ensure we maintain our position.

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I, for one, will be more than happy to defend this alliance tooth and nail on GP.

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I mean, who cares about a PR fight, though? There's no winning with people who's stance is (essentially) hate everyone and everything associated with Glen.

As for the long-term, FA strategy, if this is a us making moves rather than responding, that's great. It's better for us to lead policy than be stuck is constant PR fights.

-tsunamy
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PR is hugely important in the conduction of foreign policy. Your goals and actions won't matter if nobody sees them as you want them to see them.


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And Tsu I would argue that we aren’t trying to win over those elements who despise certain members of our community, I would argue we must try to win over the members of GP who are fairly neutral.


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Spoiler

I mean, who cares about a PR fight, though? There's no winning with people who's stance is (essentially) hate everyone and everything associated with Glen.
h
As for the long-term, FA strategy, if this is a us making moves rather than responding, that's great. It's better for us to lead policy than be stuck is constant PR fights.

It's not as much Glenn perse as anyone who won't obey them and play the game their way. Balder wanted to commit "genocide" against defenders and would love us if we did the same.

If you don't want to say anything because you absolutely don't care about NSGP, cool I respect that view. We could always cut down our presence on NSGP and rely more on ourselves. That is a stance and while it's not one I would adopt, it's a valid view to hold based on the toxicity that comes our way by people who have stated they want to purge TSP.

How many TSPers actively engage in the PR fight?  Part of any fight is the people who seem to support it or not. Hanging out invisibly without saying nary a word on NSGP or across platforms and then bemoaning the PR fight is more than a bit disingenuous.

If you don't say something you are part of the problem.  If you find it dismal then perhaps do what the other side is good at - arguing and having a presence on the venues that the PR clashes happen. Presence means people, not just 1-3 lone voices but a team or squad.  What TSP is terrible at is having its people (who have a lot to say otherwise) actually get out there and get into it. Deep. 

Spoilered because off-topic ^

Back to the treaty at hand, more reasons to treaty with the NPO (recent GP events). They have not recognized the travesty that is the coup in Lazarus and continue to rail against it.

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PR is hugely important in the conduction of foreign policy. Your goals and actions won't matter if nobody sees them as you want them to see them.

 

And Tsu I would argue that we aren’t trying to win over those elements who despise certain members of our community, I would argue we must try to win over the members of GP who are fairly neutral.

 

If you don't want to say anything because you absolutely don't care about NSGP, cool I respect that view. We could always cut down our presence on NSGP and rely more on ourselves. That is a stance and while it's not one I would adopt, it's a valid view to hold based on the toxicity that comes our way by people who have stated they want to purge TSP.

As a general response here ... we know, I don't care about about NSGP and think the more we stay off of the NSGP forum and chart a course around that, the better. If anyone had success within NSGP I might feel differently, but we've had people as varied as Glen, Bel, Escade and Roavin engage to varying degrees and the hostility and toxicity hasn't changed.

We can conduct PR without going into GP and/or without putting ourselves into spaces where toxic people are. In fact, I think we've been doing this by engaging in cultural activities and interacting with regions directly rather that speaking to NS at large. Finally, we're not going to win over anyone by becoming shrill caricatures of ourselves — which is what happens when we engage with certain sectors. 

Again, we need to make moves and let those things speak for themselves. This treaty a great step in that direction.

-tsunamy
[forum admin]

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