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**Seraph** · 12-13-2018, 08:48 AM

(12-13-2018, 04:51 AM)Beepee Wrote: Seraph' s LC suggestion of an Assembly member is a good one to overcome this issue but it was thrown out by the assembly a while back, as being unnecessary/unfair? Wasn't it?

I also agree that the boards can be unwieldy but oft I think that's a product of a government/bureaucracy. Any attempt to simplify, streamline is likely to be a massive task and a long term project. Probably many more hours than we have between us. But maybe there more signposting, Pr and colour that could be used to make it easier to navigate as a quick fix? (Says he with very little understanding of how the board actually works)

I remember joining the assembly and spending a good few evening's trying to fit everything together. Does a mentoring programme sound like an option on this?

I'd also float a simplification of dispatches on these matters. There's great stuff in there, but sometimes it's info overload. (Someone mentioned it as a wall) That might be an easier start?

I do feel we've got 95% of the stuff already there, it's just that last 5%

It was the LC block vote in the Assembly that we did away with. What I was proposing was just a representative voice, rather than additional voting power, which is indeed, technically unnecessary now.

The wall of text was my fault. I can give Onder a run for his money, apparently. Of course, before I made that guide, we didn't have anything actively in use in the region, so it was better than nothing.

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**Beepee** · 12-13-2018, 09:24 AM

No worries on the 'Wall'.... I'm glad it's there! I found it useful.... but I'm a bureaucrat!
As I said, ineloquently, It's mainly packaging... the info is great!

Perhaps we need TSSS, Aiden and Slab to tell us what /if they want help, and those who run in next LC need to be pushed more on these types of integration questions too.

Check my links.....

SWAN 4 Life
https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1086117

Divine Owl · 12-13-2018, 09:35 PM

(12-13-2018, 09:24 AM)Beepee Wrote: No worries on the 'Wall'.... I'm glad it's there! I found it useful.... but I'm a bureaucrat!
As I said, ineloquently, It's mainly packaging... the info is great!

Perhaps we need TSSS, Aiden and Slab to tell us what /if they want help, and those who run in next LC need to be pushed more on these types of integration questions too.

I will make sure to promote activity on the forums during assembly votes. I’ll also tell TSSS and Slab about it.

AIDENFIEELD

Legislator in TSP | Active User of the RMB | Former Local Councillor | Member of The Ministry Of Regional Affairs

**Pronoun** · 12-14-2018, 08:39 PM

There's been a lot of discussion about legislative and institutional changes, and I totally get that — if we want to craft comprehensive and successful solutions, it's going to require some concrete and significant actions. That said, I want to take a moment to share some of my personal experiences because I think it contains a few lessons that can be applied more generally as well.

I started playing NationStates as a clueless fourth-grader, answering issues, often randomly, and rarely interacting with other players. I was rarely active on the RMB (and, in fact, I'm still not very active there), and only dimly aware that my region had a government. But, for some reason, the forum always held a strange appeal — not for practical reasons, but instead because I thought the Hall of Spam looked fun. Apparently, I was bored enough to read through all the subforums and find one that interested me, but I doubt that's true of region members in general. But as I started using the forum more, I also started poking around, and eventually decided to apply for citizenship (now legislatorship).

That said, I've not exactly been a longtime community member; I've been on and off NationStates for a while now, and it's become almost routine for me to simply lose interest in the game at some point. And I think at some point we need to recognize that not everybody thinks the regional governance way of playing NationStates is appealing to everybody — I definitely agree that we shouldn't be forcing anybody to join the forum.

There's also the weird thing that when I had a few questions about applying for citizenship, I asked them on the RMB; to be frank, I'm not entirely sure how well that would work if I tried that today. Now, I understand that LegComm now maintains an FAQ about Legislator applications, but I think it would also be nice to have just a general Q&A thread — and not necessarily just about Legislatorship, but just about the forums in general (my citizenship application sounds very confused, although part of that is just my personality).

That's enough personal narration, though — I have a couple suggestions to offer, and feel free to refute or revise them because, honestly, I'm not too sure of them myself:

Take a gradual approach to forum integration. When we talk about forum integration, we often refer primarily to recruiting new Assembly members. There's much more to our forums, though, from spam games to a role-playing community, and we should emphasize this fact. Even if our end goal is to recruit more Legislators, we need to go one step at a time, and trying to understand both the forum and the Assembly at the same time can be overwhelming.
Help new users understand the forum. I admit that the forum isn't the most user-friendly platform, especially in comparison to the RMB, but it does have its advantages. Its organization is an excellent example of how these advantages are often double-edged swords — threads and subforums allow ideas and posts to be more organized, but, at the same time, an overly complex organizational structure can drive away new or potential forum users.

Esfalsa | NationStates | Wiki | Roleplay | Discord

Concrete Slab · 12-14-2018, 09:29 PM

We're on it! Aiden put out a poll game side and I will send tgs detailing the process.

Concrete Slab
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***sandaoguo*** · 12-15-2018, 09:46 AM

(12-12-2018, 01:35 PM)Belschaft Wrote: Back when I was on the LC I was very focussed on representing the interests of in-game players in the Assembly, which largely annoyed people here.

In part because your “representation” tended to be what you personally wanted (all votes and elections being held via RMB poll), when the RMB was saying over and over again that they didn’t want more politics on the RMB. Also, it’s worth remembering the way you came to sit on the RMB in the first place, which earned particularly bad will towards you as an individual rather than ill will towards to the LC as an institution.

The issue with these discussions has *always* been that they are divorced from reality. The premise is flawed, plain and simple. There’s no divine mandate that game-side players need to be integrated into what we do on the forums. As always, we are two communities within the same house. We unshackled the LC from our own expectations of what gameside governance should be, and they’ve created what *they* want it to be. At the end of the day, why do we keep thinking it’s not enough?

Pronoun’s suggestions seem to be the best I’ve seen in a while.

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***Tsunamy*** · 12-15-2018, 08:08 PM

(12-15-2018, 09:46 AM)sandaoguo Wrote: The issue with these discussions has *always* been that they are divorced from reality. The premise is flawed, plain and simple. There’s no divine mandate that game-side players need to be integrated into what we do on the forums. As always, we are two communities within the same house. We unshackled the LC from our own expectations of what gameside governance should be, and they’ve created what *they* want it to be. At the end of the day, why do we keep thinking it’s not enough?

Pronoun’s suggestions seem to be the best I’ve seen in a while.

While I'd be interested in the impetus for this latest discussion, the problem is that when we say they are two separate communities, we treat them as two separate communities. Which, isn't a problem, per se, but is a problem when legislators get old and leave the game and we don't have young blood to take over. In the end, the forum needs to draw players from the RMB side or it's going to (a) die off or (b) become an entry point for experienced players to influence the region.

Broadly, I'd say that having the LC partake in government affairs in one way; building out their own laws and stuff (which really has been added since Bel was an LC member), is another. The fact that players don't take the political debates seriously in campaigning likely shows where the RMB-side appetite is for this type of stuff. Even the more "serious" RMB players (i.e. Aram) have largely shied away from policy heavy LC campaigns.

I generally make it a point to promote big forum-style things on the RMB (although, I could have done a better job re: NPO), although I haven't been making explicit pitches to join the forums.

Anyhow: tl;dr: We need to promote the forums in order to get new players from TSP involved in the government. If they don't take us up on that offer, they have plenty of representation from the LC as is.

-tsunamy
[forum admin]

The Sakhalinsk Empire · 12-15-2018, 11:03 PM

@Concrete Slab has just sent a TG to all of TSP about the forums. Here it is, verbatim:

Concrete Slab Wrote:Hello, my brothers and sisters! It is I, CS!Now, the purpose of this telegram is to introduce to the vibrant world of The South Pacific forums!This is the place where important decisions are made that affect not only TSP, but our relations with the world. And guess what??You can be a part of this decision-making process!It's simple! Just go here: http://tspforums.xyz/forum-11.html and create a thread by pressing the "create a thread" button.Follow the steps here: http://tspforums.xyz/thread-5837.html and you'll soon be a crucial part of TSP's democratic process!In order to vote on legislation, just go here! http://tspforums.xyz/forum-27.htmlIf you have any questions, contact me, my fellow LC mates The Solar System Scope and Aidenfieeld, and the CRS!Have fun!P.S. Sorry for all the links, my url was not working. :/

The Sakhalinsk Empire, Legislator of the South Pacific
Currently a citizen and legislator of TSP. I am active as Sverigesriket in Europe.

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**Belschaft** · 12-16-2018, 04:24 PM

(12-15-2018, 09:46 AM)sandaoguo Wrote:
(12-12-2018, 01:35 PM)Belschaft Wrote: Back when I was on the LC I was very focussed on representing the interests of in-game players in the Assembly, which largely annoyed people here.

In part because your “representation” tended to be what you personally wanted (all votes and elections being held via RMB poll), when the RMB was saying over and over again that they didn’t want more politics on the RMB. Also, it’s worth remembering the way you came to sit on the RMB in the first place, which earned particularly bad will towards you as an individual rather than ill will towards to the LC as an institution.

You always asserted this, but I was elected to the LC twice on that platform despite a concerted effort to defeat me - and with any and all bad will about "Livia" being a factor, considering my public mea culpa.

The simple reality is that in-game players have always wanted more say in how TSP is run, and don't want to have to come here to have it.

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***Tsunamy*** · 12-16-2018, 05:11 PM

(12-16-2018, 04:24 PM)Belschaft Wrote: The simple reality is that in-game players have always wanted more say in how TSP is run, and don't want to have to come here to have it.

Bel — you know I've been a huge proponent of involving gameside, but I honestly don't know how much of that sentiment is serious. Obviously when asked, everyone wants a say, but when it actually comes to *doing it* it's a much smaller portion of the region who is interested. (Just look at the voting for delegate and LC.)

I really do think we have the best of both worlds atm. We have a place for the RMB-sider to be heard and can dictate much of their own stuff, while we also have the offsite government for be ... pedantic and NS-related things.

The only thing the RMB-side doesn't have a say on (that does directly effect them) are our embassies. Which, we could come up with solutions for if that's a big deal.

-tsunamy
[forum admin]