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***Tsunamy*** · 01-25-2021, 12:34 AM

So, this debate is really difficult to have across two threads. But, two interrelated things since everyone seems to agree with me in various ways.

1) I don't think forcing an either/or choice is ideal because any legislation on it will needlessly lock us into specifics moving forward, but also because I think it creates divisions where there doesn't really need to be any.

2) Building off what I know was suggested elsewhere/earlier, what if we legislate something that says the black triangle design is the classic or traditional flag of TSP, but legislate that other flags can be used provided they fit certain qualities (I'm thinking matching colors or used for specific events [e.g. holidays].) Then the traditional flag would always be in the repertoire while others can used as people see fit.

Ultimately, this still keeps the history but also allows for creativity and experimentation with designs.

-tsunamy
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Penguin · 01-25-2021, 11:42 AM

(01-25-2021, 12:34 AM)Tsunamy Wrote: So, this debate is really difficult to have across two threads. But, two interrelated things since everyone seems to agree with me in various ways.

1) I don't think forcing an either/or choice is ideal because any legislation on it will needlessly lock us into specifics moving forward, but also because I think it creates divisions where there doesn't really need to be any.

2) Building off what I know was suggested elsewhere/earlier, what if we legislate something that says the black triangle design is the classic or traditional flag of TSP, but legislate that other flags can be used provided they fit certain qualities (I'm thinking matching colors or used for specific events [e.g. holidays].) Then the traditional flag would always be in the repertoire while others can used as people see fit.

Ultimately, this still keeps the history but also allows for creativity and experimentation with designs.

I can get behind this IF there is conversation and not just "Hey this is what it is and that is it. This design is going EVERYWHERE because it is." Which is slightly a little bit kind of what is happening.

We do have other Flags that we use throughout the year that have been mentioned. But we ALWAYS come back to the tried and true because it IS. I am open to options but there NEEDS to be conversation.

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***Tsunamy*** · 01-25-2021, 12:10 PM

(01-25-2021, 11:42 AM)Penguin Wrote:
(01-25-2021, 12:34 AM)Tsunamy Wrote: So, this debate is really difficult to have across two threads. But, two interrelated things since everyone seems to agree with me in various ways.

1) I don't think forcing an either/or choice is ideal because any legislation on it will needlessly lock us into specifics moving forward, but also because I think it creates divisions where there doesn't really need to be any.

2) Building off what I know was suggested elsewhere/earlier, what if we legislate something that says the black triangle design is the classic or traditional flag of TSP, but legislate that other flags can be used provided they fit certain qualities (I'm thinking matching colors or used for specific events [e.g. holidays].) Then the traditional flag would always be in the repertoire while others can used as people see fit.

Ultimately, this still keeps the history but also allows for creativity and experimentation with designs.

I can get behind this IF there is conversation and not just "Hey this is what it is and that is it. This design is going EVERYWHERE because it is." Which is slightly a little bit kind of what is happening.

We do have other Flags that we use throughout the year that have been mentioned. But we ALWAYS come back to the tried and true because it IS. I am open to options but there NEEDS to be conversation.

We do, which is why I think we need to keep it open.

I mean, honestly, this really has just been tradition. Unless there's something I'm missing the delegate (or really anyone with appearance powers) could have change the flag at any time in the past x amount of years, they just didn't.

I think it also seems relevant that much of the other visual communications have just put designed and used — from logos for particular ministries to the flag for the SPSF. I don't recall us ever formally voting on that before, so I think we can understand which ministry is overseeing this (apologies I'm out of that loop) would think it wouldn't be a problem.

That said, and not to cast shade on anyone, while I don't think the Assembly doesn't always need to weigh in, I would hope those trying to make branding and aesthetic changes from within the Cabinet would at least consult the PM about it.

-tsunamy
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**Belschaft** · 01-25-2021, 12:41 PM

Tsu, absolutely no offense is meant but I have to ask - have you actually read what I'm proposing? Nothing in the bill says that the flag is the only one we can use or that we can't have others. It goes so far as to say that "Alternative symbols may be used on flags, logos and other graphics for events, festivals, activities and other purposes as deemed suitable by the relevant branches of government" and that "Individual branches of government may adopt alternative symbols for their own use, such as a military Battle Flag or a Ministry logo."

All it does is establish that the flag and symbol we've had for seventeen years are our official flag and symbol. It does nothing else. It doesn't even mandate that they be used.

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***Tsunamy*** · 01-25-2021, 03:28 PM

(01-25-2021, 12:41 PM)Belschaft Wrote: Tsu, absolutely no offense is meant but I have to ask - have you actually read what I'm proposing? Nothing in the bill says that the flag is the only one we can use or that we can't have others. It goes so far as to say that "Alternative symbols may be used on flags, logos and other graphics for events, festivals, activities and other purposes as deemed suitable by the relevant branches of government" and that "Individual branches of government may adopt alternative symbols for their own use, such as a military Battle Flag or a Ministry logo."

All it does is establish that the flag and symbol we've had for seventeen years are our official flag and symbol. It does nothing else. It doesn't even mandate that they be used.

Hmm. I mean, I suppose I felt that the expectation of its use was implied here? If that's not what we're trying to mandate, then ok.

-tsunamy
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**Belschaft** · 01-25-2021, 03:31 PM

I'm not trying to mandate it's sole use, merely protect it as our primary and official flag. What flag is used and when they are used would be up to individual Delegates, Local Councils and Cabinets.

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**Somyrion** · 01-25-2021, 06:58 PM

(01-25-2021, 12:41 PM)Belschaft Wrote: Tsu, absolutely no offense is meant but I have to ask - have you actually read what I'm proposing? Nothing in the bill says that the flag is the only one we can use or that we can't have others. It goes so far as to say that "Alternative symbols may be used on flags, logos and other graphics for events, festivals, activities and other purposes as deemed suitable by the relevant branches of government" and that "Individual branches of government may adopt alternative symbols for their own use, such as a military Battle Flag or a Ministry logo."

All it does is establish that the flag and symbol we've had for seventeen years are our official flag and symbol. It does nothing else. It doesn't even mandate that they be used.

What purpose do you envision this bill having, then? I must admit, I'm a little confused. I mean, I don't think we should be legislating this as the official flag at all, so I suppose I should just shut up -- but here doesn't strike me as any reason to legislate this if all it does is apply the title "official flag" to a certain design, with no actual mandate to ever use that flag?

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**Belschaft** · 01-25-2021, 08:09 PM

The same argument could be made about much of the Cultural Act, which identifies aspects of our regional identity but doesn’t mandate we do anything in particular with them. What is the reason to legislate that our regional animal is the Llama other than the fact that our regional animal is the Llama?

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(This post was last modified: 01-25-2021, 10:02 PM by Belschaft.)

Jebediah · 01-28-2021, 09:11 AM

I do agree with Belschaft here that it is important to protect the flag in legislation like this; I'd add that the reason we have this proposal and the rest of the Cultural Act is to not force the use of it but to clarify for newer members, foreign personnel and the media the standard flags, seals, values and so on of The South Pacific.

I'd also add that there seems to be some generalised conception that newer members support this flag - which may be true for some, but I'd consider myself a newer member and I oppose the use of this new flag as the official one in any way - for the same reason as Belschaft and Kringle.

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**Belschaft** · 01-28-2021, 10:17 AM

I think we've largely exhausted debate on this, so unless anyone has something new to raise I'll motion to vote on this version of the bill tomorrow.

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