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***Tsunamy*** · 03-04-2016, 04:31 PM

I think Kris' point should be read and honestly considered.

I think it's a really great summation of one side of equation, that I don't think has been adequately articulated previously.

-tsunamy
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***sandaoguo*** · 03-04-2016, 07:09 PM

(03-04-2016, 01:35 PM)Farengeto Wrote:
(03-04-2016, 01:20 PM)HEM Wrote: Has Sam even posted here? Isn't there a new argument that he might not be active enough for this post??
His last public post was 30 days ago. He has made some posts in an unclear non-CSS hidden sub-forum since then.

This actually isn't the case. He voted in the elections, and those forums were hidden, rather than archived. (They're archived now.) So while the Citizen Roster was displaying the correct dates of the last two posts, the second-to-last (a ballot post) couldn't be seen when searching all his posts.

(03-04-2016, 01:59 PM)Belschaft Wrote: Correct. The point I was making was that Sam didn't eject Kris because he was evil or malicious, but because the influence calculations indicated that he was best placed to do so. The increased influence costs for Regional Officers meant that I couldn't have done so had Hile added me as an RO, or it is likely that I would have ejected at least one of the people in question to retain influence on Hile and Imki.

The fact that it was Sam who actually pressed the button is relevant, but it has to be understood that every other member of the cabinet as well as myself were aware that it was going to happen and agreed to support it.

Wait. Hold up. Are you saying right now that you were in some kind of line for who got to banject whom? Because all this time, I've been under the impression that you were outside that circle of decision-making, trying to convince Hileville in the first place that a coup was going too far.

Or is this a purely hypothetical what-if?

**Belschaft** · 03-04-2016, 07:53 PM

(03-04-2016, 07:09 PM)sandaoguo Wrote:
(03-04-2016, 01:59 PM)Belschaft Wrote: Correct. The point I was making was that Sam didn't eject Kris because he was evil or malicious, but because the influence calculations indicated that he was best placed to do so. The increased influence costs for Regional Officers meant that I couldn't have done so had Hile added me as an RO, or it is likely that I would have ejected at least one of the people in question to retain influence on Hile and Imki.

The fact that it was Sam who actually pressed the button is relevant, but it has to be understood that every other member of the cabinet as well as myself were aware that it was going to happen and agreed to support it.

Wait. Hold up. Are you saying right now that you were in some kind of line for who got to banject whom? Because all this time, I've been under the impression that you were outside that circle of decision-making, trying to convince Hileville in the first place that a coup was going too far.

Or is this a purely hypothetical what-if?

I was not part of the decision to dissolve the Coalition and call a constitutional convention, and when I was informed of it I advised against it, and suggested alternatives. When it became clear that events would be going forward I agreed to support it, whilst continuing to advise against it. I discussed the ejections with Hileville before they occurred, and went over the influence costs with him.

_{Minister of Media, Subversion and Sandwich Making}
^{Associate Justice of the High Court and Senior Moderator}

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***sandaoguo*** · 03-04-2016, 09:35 PM

(03-04-2016, 07:53 PM)Belschaft Wrote: I was not part of the decision to dissolve the Coalition and call a constitutional convention, and when I was informed of it I advised against it, and suggested alternatives. When it became clear that events would be going forward I agreed to support it, whilst continuing to advise against it. I discussed the ejections with Hileville before they occurred, and went over the influence costs with him.

That probably would have been prudent of you to mention that in the post where you distanced yourself from the whole thing. Or during the two debates on your security threat removal. Or even when Hileville gave you his nation, because I was under the impression that you had somehow convinced him to give up-- not that he gave it to you as the most natural hand-off, because you literally coached him through the coup. I don't know-- if that was told to somebody on the CSS, then they failed to relay that info to me (and I imagine anybody else).

I mean, really. I'm pretty flabbergasted right now that this is just being said nonchalantly. I'm sure absolutely nothing is going to come of it, given the terminal dysfunction of our entire political system right now. But my god.

**Belschaft** · 03-04-2016, 09:53 PM

That's quite literally something I have discussed numerous times before, on IRC and Discord, with a multitude of people. I've never denied my support for the Cabinet, or my involvement in The Crisis. I would not say that I was coaching Hileville through The Crisis, but I was certainly discussing events with him and giving advice; I personally believe that had I been involved in decision making, or had my advice been taken more often, things would have gone very differently. I certainly would not have ran things in such a ramshackle way had I been in charge.

For me loyalty has always been very important, and when I disagree with someone I'm working with or have agreed to support, I do so privately. As both Tsu and Raven have both confirmed in the past, I made it clear to both of them that I had opposed the decision to dissolve the coalition and tried to persuade Hileville to act otherwise, and continued to advocate for moderation and compromise as things progressed. However, once the decision was made I agreed to go along with it and do what I could to support it.

_{Minister of Media, Subversion and Sandwich Making}
^{Associate Justice of the High Court and Senior Moderator}

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(This post was last modified: 03-04-2016, 09:58 PM by Belschaft.)

***Kris Kringle*** · 03-04-2016, 10:11 PM

[Please read this with an initial sigh and a general tone that mixes regret and self-deprecation]

Belschaft...much like myself, you would be so much nicer all the time if you focused on roleplaying and stopped getting involved in regional politics.

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***sandaoguo*** · 03-05-2016, 02:55 PM

(03-04-2016, 09:53 PM)Belschaft Wrote: For me loyalty has always been very important, and when I disagree with someone I'm working with or have agreed to support, I do so privately. As both Tsu and Raven have both confirmed in the past, I made it clear to both of them that I had opposed the decision to dissolve the coalition and tried to persuade Hileville to act otherwise, and continued to advocate for moderation and compromise as things progressed. However, once the decision was made I agreed to go along with it and do what I could to support it.

You say that as if this is the respectable way to act. If you thought the coup was a mistake, then you shouldn't have helped with it by literally helping Hileville decide who to have kick whom. Helping with the coup while privately paying lip-service to "moderation" isn't some kind of enlightened neutrality. I really don't understand how somebody could even think that way.

I think the reality is that people act in their own self interest. You always have. You supported Hileville and the rogue Cabinet because they let you back into TSP, and you were gonna finally have some power in the region to which you genuinely feel you belong. (And your political enemies would be forcefully removed.) You provided crucial technical expertise to the coup because, if successful, you would be greatly rewarded. When the coup failed, almost entirely thanks to Scylla's principled defection, you had Hileville give his nation to you, because that was perfect PR. Some were basically calling you the savior of TSP. Your grand gesture with "truth and reconciliation" was the kind of bait our regional culture clamors for. But it was low on truth (no, you were not open about your direct involvement, unless I'm the last person in this region to hear about it), and "reconciliation" ended up being a tool to hit Kris and me with, while any criticism of the coup-ers or advocacy for real consequences would get the tsk-tsk of the "reasonable adults" in the room. It's quite brilliant. And completely dejecting.

I'm really at a loss for this region. I think we're all content keeping our heads in the sand, and it's just so easy to manipulate our culture and political environment by taking advantage of everybody's desire to avoid any hard realities. But honestly, I think we'll have our collective reckoning at some point, and the hope that we start looking at things and finally start asking, "Wtf were we thinking???" is what keeps me here. I like this game too much, and TSP is the region I chose.

~~Wolf~~ · 03-05-2016, 05:22 PM

(03-05-2016, 02:55 PM)sandaoguo Wrote: When the coup failed, almost entirely thanks to Scylla's principled defection, you had Hileville give his nation to you, because that was perfect PR. Some were basically calling you the savior of TSP. Your grand gesture with "truth and reconciliation" was the kind of bait our regional culture clamors for. But it was low on truth (no, you were not open about your direct involvement, unless I'm the last person in this region to hear about it), and "reconciliation" ended up being a tool to hit Kris and me with, while any criticism of the coup-ers or advocacy for real consequences would get the tsk-tsk of the "reasonable adults" in the room. It's quite brilliant. And completely dejecting.

I'm really at a loss for this region. I think we're all content keeping our heads in the sand, and it's just so easy to manipulate our culture and political environment by taking advantage of everybody's desire to avoid any hard realities.

Oh look, one side attacking the other for it's honesty and trying to make them out to be the worst villains in TSP history for what I am sure isn't political points.

It's almost like The Crisis never even happened...well in the sense the we learned absolutely nothing from it.

(This post was last modified: 03-05-2016, 05:24 PM by Wolf.)

Zak6858 · 03-05-2016, 06:15 PM

Once again the Cabinet ignores everything the Assembly votes on...

I am Zadiner/Zak. Part of Assembly, some other stuff, Founder of some other region.
Hey, I have a bunch of issues. You don't need to care.
Emoji of the week: :dodgy:

***sandaoguo*** · 03-05-2016, 06:17 PM

The Crisis is a magazine.

Stop your coup denialism.

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