If this split even happens, what is the Discord solution? I must say that I am opposed to the creation of new servers. To my knowledge, TSP currently has eight servers (main, roleplay, MoRA, MoFA, SPSF, Campus, OWL, and SOON). We should seriously consider an executive server or something because this seems excessive at this point.

I agree, this should go hand-in-hand with the ongoing project to figure out if combining servers is feasible. I do think Roavin is heading the right direction with figuring out how to combine everything onto the main server.

Arts and Design in particular - from the way it's discussed here, it sounds like it would essentially be responding to requests from Ministries. What would a director do? Approve people to join it? Pass on messages from Ministries? Seems like it could be fairly autonomous.

If we don't want a full area for that, what about naming a "resident artist" or something of that caliber? I agree multiple people might not be needed, but an official position might still be better than and ad hoc team.    

I've thought about it a bit today and I'm really excited about the idea of a Creative Collective for TSP - a self-organised group of artists and writers who can be commissioned for projects by the ministries and departments (including media, which would also have it's own, probably overlapping staff), but also produce their own stuff for the region as the mood takes them. I think this would increase the sense of artist freedom, whilst putting then in a structure where their services are clearly advertised. I'd imagine them have a small internally-elected leadership of the first-among-equals kind. As little bureaucracy as possible.   

A 'creative collective' works as a model for a private organization, but as I understand it, the arts and design structure we're planning is still meant to be part of the government. I'm just not sure that level of complete autonomy is suitable for a body that is meant to be accountable to the Cabinet and to the region. Yes, we have a good graphics team right now in which everyone is pretty active and responsive and able to manage things independently... but that's not necessarily always going to be the case. We need this institution to be more accountable, permanently, than the Silicon Pens will ever need to be.

Placing it under the department model, just like media (i.e. a Cabinet-appointed director), does that just fine. It also makes the overall departments structure easier to comprehend -- you have two departments that work the same way, instead of one lone department (why are we even calling it a separate structure if there's only one of it?), one guild thing, and one temporary cabinet initiative. At the same time, it makes those things that you want to encourage no harder: the department's artists would still be commissioned for projects by ministries (after all, that's the whole point of having departments), could still produce their own content, would still clearly advertise their services, and would still have a very light bureaucracy (only one official total). To be honest, I'm not totally sure how the collective idea differs from the department idea other than that there would be no external oversight ability for selection of the director and that it would include writers (I'm pretty sure writers belong in the media department, though, not in the arts and design department).

I'd argue that there are actually a non-trivial number of tasks that the director/leadership would have to perform, so having simply a leaderless guild is unfeasible: approving applicants, making sure members are active and participating, checking in on commissioned project progress... 

What would that look like in summary?
I'm not good at comprehending large amounts of text and translating it into a comprehend able mind-graph.

Local Councillor (3/15/20 - 6/23/20)
Deputy Minister of Educational Affairs (2/19/20 - 4/9/20)
Senior Fellow of Integration (12/20/20 - 2/19/20)
Fellow (1/12/19 - ~10/14/20) 
Ambassador to Osiris and TWP (4/3/20 - 7/8/20)
Legislator (1/19/19 - 11/1/21)
Chair of the Assembly (6/23/20 - 9/3/20)
Secretary of State (7/8/20 - 2/4/21 | 6/14/21 - 11/1/21) 
Deputy of Media (2/14/21 - 11/1/21)
Ambassador to TNP and Lazarus  (6/14/21 - 10/22/21)
MoE Leadership (10/14/20 - 11/1/21)

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tl;dr We started with a proposal by Omega for a two-way ministry split. Jay had made a counter-proposal with a different/smaller split and we were at a bit of an impasse, then Qwert proposed a new, unique idea that instead of simply splitting the ministry into multiple new ministries, we turn it into a couple ministries and a couple departments, or non-cabinet regional utilities. Omega then proposed a text for that model, solidifying the ministries as Culture and Engagement and the departments as Art/Design and Media. I think people are generally more on board with this idea than they were with the older, traditional split models that Omega and Jay had proposed earlier, though there are some concerns about how to make it work with Discord organization. Now we're hashing out what leadership would look like for these departments -- more like a guild, or more like a cabinet-led service. Big picture is that there are a substantial number of people behind some form of split, and while some of the MoRA leadership members were highly resistant to Omega's initial proposal, Qwert's departments idea might work as a good compromise for everyone.

Now, hold on a second. I have to respectfully disagree with Qwert's proposal. It gives a ministry to integration, but who will these public utilities, as they are called, be held accountable to? We'd essentially be depowering and removing Cabinet representation to groups involved in things such as events planning and media.

4× Cabinet minister /// 1× OWL director /// CRS member /// SPSF

My History

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tl;dr We started with a proposal by Omega for a two-way ministry split. Jay had made a counter-proposal with a different/smaller split and we were at a bit of an impasse, then Qwert proposed a new, unique idea that instead of simply splitting the ministry into multiple new ministries, we turn it into a couple ministries and a couple departments, or non-cabinet regional utilities. Omega then proposed a text for that model, solidifying the ministries as Culture and Engagement and the departments as Art/Design and Media. I think people are generally more on board with this idea than they were with the older, traditional split models that Omega and Jay had proposed earlier, though there are some concerns about how to make it work with Discord organization. Now we're hashing out what leadership would look like for these departments -- more like a guild, or more like a cabinet-led service. Big picture is that there are a substantial number of people behind some form of split, and while some of the MoRA leadership members were highly resistant to Omega's initial proposal, Qwert's departments idea might work as a good compromise for everyone.

Now, hold on a second. I have to respectfully disagree with Qwert's proposal. It gives a ministry to integration, but who will these public utilities, as they are called, be held accountable to? We'd essentially be depowering and removing Cabinet representation to groups involved in things such as events planning and media. 

Yeah, that's essentially the point I'm trying to make in my response to Seraph. I like the public utilities idea, because frankly the nature of graphics/design and media is more service-like than policy-like (in other words, even as they stand right now, they're more about providing content and less about organizing or making decisions). But I think, as government utilities, they need to be held accountable to the Cabinet rather than be fully independent guilds. A Cabinet-appointed, Assembly-confirmed director would do the trick.

Also -- I don't know if you're still looking at Qwert's original proposal, but the most recent idea is to have events planning as part of the culture ministry and not as a department.

~ Aumeltopia ~

Raccoons are bandits! First they steal your food . . . and then your heart/identity!

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tl;dr We started with a proposal by Omega for a two-way ministry split. Jay had made a counter-proposal with a different/smaller split and we were at a bit of an impasse, then Qwert proposed a new, unique idea that instead of simply splitting the ministry into multiple new ministries, we turn it into a couple ministries and a couple departments, or non-cabinet regional utilities. Omega then proposed a text for that model, solidifying the ministries as Culture and Engagement and the departments as Art/Design and Media. I think people are generally more on board with this idea than they were with the older, traditional split models that Omega and Jay had proposed earlier, though there are some concerns about how to make it work with Discord organization. Now we're hashing out what leadership would look like for these departments -- more like a guild, or more like a cabinet-led service. Big picture is that there are a substantial number of people behind some form of split, and while some of the MoRA leadership members were highly resistant to Omega's initial proposal, Qwert's departments idea might work as a good compromise for everyone.

Now, hold on a second. I have to respectfully disagree with Qwert's proposal. It gives a ministry to integration, but who will these public utilities, as they are called, be held accountable to? We'd essentially be depowering and removing Cabinet representation to groups involved in things such as events planning and media. 

Periodic reconfirmation vote will be a way for the Assembly to hold them accountable plus recall vote. Tbf, Media may needed to be a ministry if it also cares about promoting private media.

Chief Supervising Armchair

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Thanks. I was really confused by all the proposals and counter-ideas and just needed a summary. I like the sound of the current developments, though I expect I'll have more thoughts as things develop and as I have more time to be active.

I absolutely agree, I too am liking the sound of how things are progressing

Admiral General of the South Pacific

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Tbf, Media may needed to be a ministry if it also cares about promoting private media.

As someone who used to run a private media group, MoRA has never done much, if anything, in terms of promoting private media. Furthermore, due to the rise of NS Today regional private media is probably dead, at least in the short to mid-term. 

On the other note, the legislation I submitted keeps event planning under a cabinet minister and I'm not quite sure why a media organization would need a vote on cabinet policy.

Above all else, I hope to be a decent person.
Has Been
What's Next?

 

CoA: August 2016-January 2017
Minister of Foreign Affairs: October 2019-June 2020, October 2020- February 2021

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As someone who used to run a private media group, MoRA has never done much, if anything, in terms of promoting private media. Furthermore, due to the rise of NS Today regional private media is probably dead, at least in the short to mid-term.

Promoting private media was never a focus for the Ministry because of the state-sponsored projects it ran instead. A good example of such a project is the Southern Journal, now entering its sixth year of syndication and producing high-quality articles since its inception. Why bother promoting an organisation like SPIN when the government is producing new articles as well, for distribution to the region as well as (potentially) to our embassies/consulates?

I think there will always be a niche that can be filled by regional media, privately operated or state-owned, if there is a distinction between news for South Pacificans, and news for our allies and friends. Just to list a hypothetical, there can be a fervent debate in the Assembly over a recall to a Cabinet Minister due to past inflammatory, some skirmishes occurring between major powers in Treasure Island that could blow out into a full war, recent resolution to commit to a pact of friendship with a minor UCR, innovative polls by the LC on the gameside that have been very effective in promoting RMB activity, and all of it can be reported by a single news organisation tailored specifically to the South Pacific, while a newspaper such as the Southern Journal would be primarily concerned with political and cultural affairs. Not that this is the only method by which to organise media, but it is a viable option.

On the other note, the legislation I submitted keeps event planning under a cabinet minister and I'm not quite sure why a media organization would need a vote on cabinet policy.

I'm working off the basis of the following text you have submitted.

Proposed Text

(2) The Cabinet will consist of ministers with the following portfolios: Foreign Affairs, Regional AffairsCulture, Engagement, and Military Affairs.

...

Minister of Regional Affairs

(7) The Minister of Regional Affairs will be responsible for promoting regional and forum activity, integrating new players into the forums, organizing cultural events, and communicating with the world about the South Pacific’s activities.Minister of Culture

(7) The Minister of Culture will be responsible for supporting the roleplay community and planning regional cultural activities, events, and exchanges.

Minister of Engagement

(8) The Minister of Engagement will be responsible for integrating new players into the Coalition's government and community.

(9) The Minister of Engagement will direct the Coalition's educational initiatives.

Departments Act
An Act Establishing Departments of the Cabinet

1. Creation of Departments of the Cabinet

(1) The Departments are to considered as a part of the Cabinet and under the supervision of the Prime Minister.

(2) The Departments are to be separate from the Ministerial System and exist to serve the entire Coalition government and its members.

2. Directors

(1) Each Department shall be led by a Director who will be considered officials of the Coalition. 

(2) At the conclusion of regular Cabinet Elections, the incoming Cabinet shall nominate Directors for all Departments.
a. These nominations are to be presented to the Assembly before the conclusion of the transition period.
b. These nominations must be confirmed by the Assembly.

(3) In the event of a vacancy, the Cabinet shall submit a nominee to the Assembly to fill the remainder of the term.
a. This nomination must be confirmed by the Assembly.

(4) Directors will all be considered ex officio Cabinet Advisors.

3. Active Departments

(1) The following Departments of the Cabinet are currently in existence with their related mandates:
a. Department of Media- responsible for keeping the general public informed through independent journalism in all of its forms.
b. Department of Art and Design- responsible for providing logos, templates, and other types of artistic products to the government and citizens of the Coalition.

4. Constitutional Law

(1) The Departments Act is a constitutional law, and further amendments to it must meet constitutional amendment requirements.

Maintaining an independent newspaper is the purview of SPIN, not a state-ran effort. My take from that segment of the proposal is that it's trying to collate all journalistic efforts by the South Pacific into a single organisation that fulfills both the role of regional news media and foreign news source on behalf of the Coalition. It might be possible to run a newspaper like that, but you're introducing a political aspect into that entire process by enforcing an Assembly vote on the appointment of any director for media (and similarly for Arts and Design when it would be far more efficient to maintain the artistry team under the supervision of the Cabinet as a whole outside of constitutional law). If one of the goals is to ensure a more meritocratic newspaper, why would the head honcho of that be a political appointee verified by our primary lawmaking body, which could appoint a Director that could know next to nothing about how a newspaper works and possibly make decisions that hinder it?

An idea is to maintain that the Ministry of Regional Affairs maintains control of the Southern Journal but produces content specifically geared for external distribution, and that truly independent journalism such as SPIN can focus on content for South Pacificans, by South Pacificans. This is essentially Qvait's proposal, which I support as a Legislator and as an Advisor.

ProfessorHenn
Legislator

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While I would like the compromise proposal the senior Ministry leadership have put forward to be used as a framework, might I suggest we revisit the EA/CA proposal from January as a third or fourth alternative?

4× Cabinet minister /// 1× OWL director /// CRS member /// SPSF

My History

Reply

As someone who used to run a private media group, MoRA has never done much, if anything, in terms of promoting private media. Furthermore, due to the rise of NS Today regional private media is probably dead, at least in the short to mid-term.

Promoting private media was never a focus for the Ministry because of the state-sponsored projects it ran instead. A good example of such a project is the Southern Journal, now entering its sixth year of syndication and producing high-quality articles since its inception. Why bother promoting an organisation like SPIN when the government is producing new articles as well, for distribution to the region as well as (potentially) to our embassies/consulates?

I think there will always be a niche that can be filled by regional media, privately operated or state-owned, if there is a distinction between news for South Pacificans, and news for our allies and friends. Just to list a hypothetical, there can be a fervent debate in the Assembly over a recall to a Cabinet Minister due to past inflammatory, some skirmishes occurring between major powers in Treasure Island that could blow out into a full war, recent resolution to commit to a pact of friendship with a minor UCR, innovative polls by the LC on the gameside that have been very effective in promoting RMB activity, and all of it can be reported by a single news organisation tailored specifically to the South Pacific, while a newspaper such as the Southern Journal would be primarily concerned with political and cultural affairs. Not that this is the only method by which to organise media, but it is a viable option.

On the other note, the legislation I submitted keeps event planning under a cabinet minister and I'm not quite sure why a media organization would need a vote on cabinet policy.

I'm working off the basis of the following text you have submitted.

Proposed Text

(2) The Cabinet will consist of ministers with the following portfolios: Foreign Affairs, Regional AffairsCulture, Engagement, and Military Affairs.

...

Minister of Regional Affairs

(7) The Minister of Regional Affairs will be responsible for promoting regional and forum activity, integrating new players into the forums, organizing cultural events, and communicating with the world about the South Pacific’s activities.Minister of Culture

(7) The Minister of Culture will be responsible for supporting the roleplay community and planning regional cultural activities, events, and exchanges.

Minister of Engagement

(8) The Minister of Engagement will be responsible for integrating new players into the Coalition's government and community.

(9) The Minister of Engagement will direct the Coalition's educational initiatives.

Departments Act
An Act Establishing Departments of the Cabinet

1. Creation of Departments of the Cabinet

(1) The Departments are to considered as a part of the Cabinet and under the supervision of the Prime Minister.

(2) The Departments are to be separate from the Ministerial System and exist to serve the entire Coalition government and its members.

2. Directors

(1) Each Department shall be led by a Director who will be considered officials of the Coalition. 

(2) At the conclusion of regular Cabinet Elections, the incoming Cabinet shall nominate Directors for all Departments.
a. These nominations are to be presented to the Assembly before the conclusion of the transition period.
b. These nominations must be confirmed by the Assembly.

(3) In the event of a vacancy, the Cabinet shall submit a nominee to the Assembly to fill the remainder of the term.
a. This nomination must be confirmed by the Assembly.

(4) Directors will all be considered ex officio Cabinet Advisors.

3. Active Departments

(1) The following Departments of the Cabinet are currently in existence with their related mandates:
a. Department of Media- responsible for keeping the general public informed through independent journalism in all of its forms.
b. Department of Art and Design- responsible for providing logos, templates, and other types of artistic products to the government and citizens of the Coalition.

4. Constitutional Law

(1) The Departments Act is a constitutional law, and further amendments to it must meet constitutional amendment requirements.

 

Maintaining an independent newspaper is the purview of SPIN, not a state-ran effort. My take from that segment of the proposal is that it's trying to collate all journalistic efforts by the South Pacific into a single organisation that fulfills both the role of regional news media and foreign news source on behalf of the Coalition. It might be possible to run a newspaper like that, but you're introducing a political aspect into that entire process by enforcing an Assembly vote on the appointment of any director for media (and similarly for Arts and Design when it would be far more efficient to maintain the artistry team under the supervision of the Cabinet as a whole outside of constitutional law). If one of the goals is to ensure a more meritocratic newspaper, why would the head honcho of that be a political appointee verified by our primary lawmaking body, which could appoint a Director that could know next to nothing about how a newspaper works and possibly make decisions that hinder it?

An idea is to maintain that the Ministry of Regional Affairs maintains control of the Southern Journal but produces content specifically geared for external distribution, and that truly independent journalism such as SPIN can focus on content for South Pacificans, by South Pacificans. This is essentially Qvait's proposal, which I support as a Legislator and as an Advisor.   

Might your concerns be solved by 1) removing the word "independent" and 2) making the Director nominated by the department body if possible?
 

While I would like the compromise proposal the senior Ministry leadership have put forward to be used as a framework, might I suggest we revisit the EA/CA proposal from January as a third or fourth alternative?

With all due respect, the EA/CA proposal may contain different wording, but it is materially exactly the same as your original proposal. I'd love to work towards a compromise, but I don't think adding a duplicate of the same proposal is the way to go about it.

~ Aumeltopia ~

Raccoons are bandits! First they steal your food . . . and then your heart/identity!

(This post was last modified: 05-09-2020, 09:02 PM by Somyrion.)

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Just like to state this, as I've discussed privately with members of this forum thread, that Jay's proposal was meant to minimize the division of MoRA. A lot of people in MoRA won't speak anymore due to the escalated nature of this debate. However, a few others and I are here to try to make this go smoothly for MoRA.

What's done is done. What's yet to be decided, is yet to be decided.

Local Councillor (3/15/20 - 6/23/20)
Deputy Minister of Educational Affairs (2/19/20 - 4/9/20)
Senior Fellow of Integration (12/20/20 - 2/19/20)
Fellow (1/12/19 - ~10/14/20) 
Ambassador to Osiris and TWP (4/3/20 - 7/8/20)
Legislator (1/19/19 - 11/1/21)
Chair of the Assembly (6/23/20 - 9/3/20)
Secretary of State (7/8/20 - 2/4/21 | 6/14/21 - 11/1/21) 
Deputy of Media (2/14/21 - 11/1/21)
Ambassador to TNP and Lazarus  (6/14/21 - 10/22/21)
MoE Leadership (10/14/20 - 11/1/21)

(This post was last modified: 05-09-2020, 09:11 PM by Rabbitz.)

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