When I first became MoFA in the Winter 2017 term, TSP was having a discussion about potentially pulling out of CAIN.  Due to my hopes and our attempts to keep our treaty and alliance with Euro - I and my FA Team at the time worked to stay with CAIN and give it another chance.

However, now that Euro has dissolved the treaty with us and with the additional fact that CAIN continues to not  be operational at a viable level (and TSP engages in anti fascist and Nazi operations through other venues), I'd like to reopen our discussion of whether or not we should remain in CAIN.

Please see here for former discussions on this topic:
http://tspforums.xyz/thread-4804.html
http://tspforums.xyz/thread-5011.html

Escade

~ Positions Held in TSP ~
Delegate | Vice Delegate 
Minister of Regional Affairs, | Minister of Foreign Affairs | Minister of Military Affairs
~ The Sparkly One ~

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My thoughts on this are the same as it was the last time we debated revisiting it. CAIN is a boon to Europeia's stature and influence in NS. They weren't pulling their weight, and the SPSF was basically doing all the work while Euro reaped the benefits.

Europeia unceremoniously dissolved our treaty. Good riddance, as far as I'm concerned. But regardless of my personal feelings about THAT, there's absolutely no reason why TSP should help prop up a Europeian vanity project. We do antifa raids with other groups.


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I feel that it is time to pull out of CAIN, its best day, was when it was ratified by all the members. Since then, its not helping us out.

-Griffindor/Ebonhand
-Current Roles/Positions
-Legislator 2/24/20-
-High Court Justice 6/7/20-
-South Pacific Coral Guard 11/17/20-
-Minister of Engagement 6/17/22-

-Past Roles/Positions
-Legislator 7/3/16-4/10/18
-Secretary of State 4/3/20-2/24/21
-Chair of the APC 9/24/16-5/31/17
-Vice-Chair of the APC 6/1/17-4/10/18
-Local Council Member 7/1/17-11/17/17
-Citizen 5/2012-12/2014 and  2/26/16-7/3/2016

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I mean to me, this treaty looks more like virtue signaling against Nazis more than anything else.  If we can withdraw with minimal diplomatic blow back, thats fine.  But if it makes us look petty or even just having to deal with confusing messaging, I think it might be better to let it be for now.

I am happy to see an antifa friendly stance among the posts here.

The 16th Delegate of The South Pacific

(This post was last modified: 09-17-2017, 11:00 PM by southern bellz.)

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SPSF does anti Nazi\fascist operations independently and with the Sandcastles server.

CAIN has done little and instead presented itself as doing quite a lot, sometimes taking the spotlight from the actual ops done.

Escade

~ Positions Held in TSP ~
Delegate | Vice Delegate 
Minister of Regional Affairs, | Minister of Foreign Affairs | Minister of Military Affairs
~ The Sparkly One ~

My Pinterest

 

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CAIN's backrooms are a bureaucratic nightmare that are a general mix of inactivity, signatories not committing to operations, and the odd spurt of hopeful things happening. Its operations servers have minimal levels of OpSec, and have many documented leaks in the past. As an organization, as fantastically intentioned as it is, it's rather unwieldy and messy these days.

I think the informal Sandcastles server, which fully puts Anti-Fascism above politics, unlike much of CAIN, is a significant more effective endeavor. It's no surprise that the vast majority of recent anti-Fascist successes have come from there, with its far more effective Op-Sec, a coordinated Leadership structure, and a diverse population who are all there to just kick some Nazi ass.

I'd support a withdrawal from CAIN as well. SPSF has been at the forefront of most if not all recent Anti-Fascist operations, so any outsiders who'd want to whine about a TSP withdrawal need only to be countered by our military record.

[Image: Lj1SunN.png]
Formerly Banned For Still Unspecified "OOC Toxicity"

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Fine with it as long as we flood everybody with propaganda emphasize our anti-fascist stance.

But yeah, I'm fine with it. I think the public relations issue is manageable, but I'm not saying it's not an issue.

Esfalsa | NationStates | Wiki | Roleplay | Discord

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CAIN's backrooms are a bureaucratic nightmare that are a general mix of inactivity, signatories not committing to operations, and the odd spurt of hopeful things happening. Its operations servers have minimal levels of OpSec, and have many documented leaks in the past. As an organization, as fantastically intentioned as it is, it's rather unwieldy and messy these days.

I think the informal Sandcastles server, which fully puts Anti-Fascism above politics, unlike much of CAIN, is a significant more effective endeavor. It's no surprise that the vast majority of recent anti-Fascist successes have come from there, with its far more effective Op-Sec, a coordinated Leadership structure, and a diverse population who are all there to just kick some Nazi ass.

I'd support a withdrawal from CAIN as well. SPSF has been at the forefront of most if not all recent Anti-Fascist operations, so any outsiders who'd want to whine about a TSP withdrawal need only to be countered by our military record.

Excuse my ignorance, but what are sandcastle servers?

The 16th Delegate of The South Pacific

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CAIN's backrooms are a bureaucratic nightmare that are a general mix of inactivity, signatories not committing to operations, and the odd spurt of hopeful things happening. Its operations servers have minimal levels of OpSec, and have many documented leaks in the past. As an organization, as fantastically intentioned as it is, it's rather unwieldy and messy these days.

I think the informal Sandcastles server, which fully puts Anti-Fascism above politics, unlike much of CAIN, is a significant more effective endeavor. It's no surprise that the vast majority of recent anti-Fascist successes have come from there, with its far more effective Op-Sec, a coordinated Leadership structure, and a diverse population who are all there to just kick some Nazi ass.

I'd support a withdrawal from CAIN as well. SPSF has been at the forefront of most if not all recent Anti-Fascist operations, so any outsiders who'd want to whine about a TSP withdrawal need only to be countered by our military record.

Excuse my ignorance, but what are sandcastle servers?

My bad, I should've clarified on that. Ruining Nazi Sandcastles is a Discord Server that was set up specifically for anti-Fascist operations by militaries, both from and not from CAIN, who wanted to cut the politics and just get to the anti-fascist battlefield operations. If I recall correctly, this initial founding happened during one of CAIN's heavy inactivity points (as compared to its usual stagnancy).

Militaries involved throughout the server include our SPSF, The Grey Wardens, the alphabet soup of Leftist Armies, The Roman Empire, as well as a sizeable host of others. I could grab a full list tomorrow, if desired.

Anyways, the actions through this server have been at the forefront of pretty much all recent anti-Fascist operations, and it's been very effective in staying flexible and effective given that its driven by depoliticized anti-Fascist interest rather than petty internal drama that we unfortunately have seen in CAIN in the past.

[Image: Lj1SunN.png]
Formerly Banned For Still Unspecified "OOC Toxicity"

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The last CAIN operation of any significance was the destruction and refounding of Union of the Fascist Reich almost 3 months ago, the destruction was headed up by SPSF General Roavin and the refound by our boy Tim here. In the wake of this would anyone like to guess what Europeia published in their capacities as the "hosts" of CAIN?

Source: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=845153 *bolding mine.

Europeia has achieved an important victory over the Nazis. As part of the Coalition Against the Ideology of Nazism (CAIN) and our continued commitment against Nazism in NationStates, our regional military the Europeian Republican Navy has aided in the refounding of the Nazi region Union of the Fascist Reich (UFR). "The ERN provided critical numbers to the CAIN operation, assissting in the build up of influence and allowing the operation to succeed that much faster" Grand Admiral Kylia Quilor said. UFR had been targeting other regions for takeovers prior to the region becoming founderless. Utilizing hidden sleepers in the region, the forces of CAIN refounded the region and proved how futile it was for the Nazis to try to plan operations.

The victory saw cooperation across a wide range of CAIN signatories. Raider, communist, defender, independent and non-aligned military forces worked together to crush any hopes the Nazis may have had in retaining the region. It was also an important victory for CAIN since it demonstrated that the coalition could still be effective after the debate over structural reforms saw key regions leave. "This operation shows CAIN's continued perserverance to fight Nazism within NationStates. We are still militarily strong and active despite some recent losses within our membership", President Writinglegend said. By putting aside ideological differences and working together against the UFR, Europeia and other CAIN signatories have clearly demonstrated how the coalition can still be an effective tool against Nazism in NationStates.

CAIN is an ineffective bureaucratic morass that exists to increase the standing and influence of Europeia to no benefit to any other signatories. There were a few good ops last Fall and Winter, but those were almost a year ago now. The greatest service CAIN provided to the anti Nazi cause in NationStates is letting us realize that the bureaucratic treaty model for cooperating on something we all agree on is an unnecessary anchor that drags down real anti Nazi action. Thankfully we have far superior means of cooperation like Ruining Nazi Sandcastles that accomplish everything CAIN can and has not.

The North Pacific left CAIN without incident some months ago, if the people of The South Pacific desire it then we can and should do the same.

Benevolent Thomas-Today at 11:15 AM
"I'm not sure if Altmoras has ever been wrong about anything."

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