| TRR vs. TNI |
This is mind boggling to me. The statement says twice about how our cabinet tried to resolve this via communicating and it made every effort to make our intention clear. Yet, now the clarification is that we didn't communicate anything to TNI. I don't get how the excuse that 'TNI hasn't talked to us' has anything to do with us not communicating our intentions with this treaty, but the fact is we had something to communicate, but we didn't. Apparently making basic efforts to maintain assembly voted treaties is considered bending over backwards.
If the issues with TNI was so bad, the cabinet should have brought the debate to leave the treaty to the assembly floor. Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
The 16th Delegate of The South Pacific
(07-29-2014, 04:44 PM)southern bellz Wrote: This is mind boggling to me. The statement says twice about how our cabinet tried to resolve this via communicating and it made every effort to make our intention clear. In the Cabinet statement, we said that we had issued a formal complaint to TNI and the UIAF, and didn't receive a real response that would have mended the issue. Had we received a response that showed TNI and the UIAF actually cared about our concerns, we would likely be at a different place. (07-29-2014, 04:44 PM)southern bellz Wrote: Yet, now the clarification is that we didn't communicate anything to TNI. We communicated a serious concern. There was some, but little, communication prior to the Liberal Haven incident. The fault of that lies with both sides, but I wouldn't say either side had any nefarious purposes. Up until the Liberal Haven incident, communication was rare simply because the TSP-TNI alliance was not the focal point of either region's foreign affairs. Various conversations with Onder, and then the Liberal Haven incident, created animosity that further deteriorated the little communication that was already occurring. I'm not sure what is so difficult to understand, here. We did not communicate as allies. For some people outside of government, there is this romanticized view of the alliance as this great and fruitful thing. But for those of us in government this past year or so, TSP-TNI only ever came up in the whole Cabinet when there was a problem. This alliance has not been as strong as you guys think it has, and that didn't just start this past term. (07-29-2014, 04:44 PM)southern bellz Wrote: Apparently making basic efforts to maintain assembly voted treaties is considered bending over backwards. "Bending over backwards" refers to the sentiment some members of the Cabinet had at the time. TRR treaty negotiations started when Escade was still in government, before the Liberal Haven incident. After that, I personally wasn't in any rush for the Cabinet to go out of its way to talk to an ally that most of us believed didn't care about us anyways. Anyways, like I said already, notifying TNI wouldn't have done anything. The Cabinet had already discussed TNI, and decided to go forward with the TRR treaty. Notifying TNI wouldn't have changed the outcome. And I'm not entirely sure they didn't already know about it -- we have a member of TNI who is a relatively active TSP citizen, after all. (07-29-2014, 04:44 PM)southern bellz Wrote: If the issues with TNI was so bad, the cabinet should have brought the debate to leave the treaty to the assembly floor. The Cabinet didn't want to end the alliance. As several Cabinet members stated during the TRR treaty debate, we didn't see any reason why the alliance had to end, unless TNI didn't agree with our stance on GCR sovereignty and security. "TRR and TNI are at war" isn't, in my opinion, a great reason to end the TSP-TNI alliance. TNI/UIAF prides itself on being very pragmatic and rational with its foreign policy. They could have seen that TSP-TNI cooperation was still very much possible. And if they really cared about protecting TSP from attack, they would do so without a treaty. Obviously I personally overestimated just how pragmatic and rationalist TNI/UIAF are. I certainly didn't expect a treaty dissolution the day after the TRR treaty passed. Now, were there communication issues? Obviously, yes. I've been saying that for a while now. The Cabinet lamented it in the statement. And despite how you're reading it, SB, I don't think everybody the Cabinet is placing the blame solely upon TNI. We've acknowledged the breakdown of the alliance as a long-term issue, not something triggered by a specific event. However, we also remain convinced that the Liberal Haven incident was indicative of the underlying problems with the alliance. None of that is ground for accusing any member of the Cabinet of lying and misleading the region, though. Those claims are politically motivated.
This is going absolutely nowhere. We're getting new bullshit to excuse the old bullshit.
Simple question; is the Cabinet prepared to declassify the relevant material and discussions in regards to this matter? If so, when? And if not, let's get it over with and compel it. Minister of Media, Subversion and Sandwich Making
Associate Justice of the High Court and Senior Moderator ![[Image: B9ytUsy.png]](https://i.imgur.com/B9ytUsy.png)
(07-29-2014, 04:08 PM)Sandaoguo Wrote: The pertinent communique referenced in our statement was already leaked by TNI, so there's nothing to declassify. I certainly won't support declassifying everything to do TNI or TRR if all you want to do with it is play politics.Anything that has to do with the Liberal Haven shitstorm, and any classified cabinet statements made to TNI/UIAF and any response, if any.
"...if you're normal, the crowd will accept you. But if you're deranged, the crowd will make you their leader." - Christopher Titus
Deranged in NS since 2011 One and ONLY minion of LadyRebels The OUTRAGEOUS CRAZY other half of LadyElysium
(07-29-2014, 05:19 PM)Belschaft Wrote: This is going absolutely nowhere. We're getting new bullshit to excuse the old bullshit. You're right. It is going nowhere. Long-standing advocate of the TSP-TNI alliance are looking for faults, and it's unlikely that you guys will ever accept the Cabinet's own narrative.You prefer to believe that I, specifically, manipulated everybody in the region, because that is what is politically advantageous to you. The reality is far less interesting, but you certainly aren't going to believe anything I say. (07-29-2014, 05:19 PM)Belschaft Wrote: Simple question; is the Cabinet prepared to declassify the relevant material and discussions in regards to this matter? If so, when? And if not, let's get it over with and compel it. I asked you what you specifically wanted. I doubt the Cabinet will voluntarily publish everything ever having to do with TNI, especially when it's clear to everybody that you're just looking to score political points. Demanding that the Cabinet declassify things like that is unprecedented, and certainly never would have flown while you were Delegate. The communique specifically mentioned in the Cabinet statement has already been leaked by TNI. The Cabinet has already explained what has happened. There is nothing in any Cabinet threads that will introduce any new events. Forcing the Cabinet to publish everything would be a very big mistake on your part, Belschaft. It's an obvious power play, especially when you have traditionally been very reserved about opening up Cabinet discussions when you're actually in the Cabinet. Politically motivated coercion will harm long-term relations between the Cabinet and the Assembly, by driving the Cabinet towards forms of communication that aren't susceptible to borderline extortion. If you have a specific question in mind, and there are Cabinet communications that can help answer it, then the Cabinet can consider publishing those communications according to Article 8 of the Code of Laws. I personally will not vote to release anything, if all you're seeking is some ammunition.
I'm a little late to the discussion, but when was the last time cabinet discussions were released? If I'm reading things correctly, they should be released every 8 months, but topics that are still on-going or would threaten the security of the region may be delayed.
The last release was the full declassification of the Zetaboards forums. The move to these forums has made declassification of discussions on the IPB forums difficult, because there aren't any good converters and we're not going to buy an IPB license.
The best way we've figured out how to do it is to make PDFs of the threads, like what I've done recently with the archive request thread. I just recently discovered how to do it without the files being too big or the posts including things like IPs. So older threads WILL be released. Unfortunately, I'm in the process if moving, so I'm limited to my phone for a few weeks, if not more.
Tsu or Kris aren't capable of doin' it?
The Third Imperium
Journalist, South Pacific Independent News Network (SPINN) Provost, Magisterium Sergeant, East Pacific Sovereign Army Journalist, East Pacific News Service Foreign Affairs Minister, The West Pacific
In theory, yeah. They'd have to spin up a local server, get a nulled version of IP. Board, import the database, and set up their browser to remove things like IP addresses.
(07-30-2014, 05:45 PM)Sandaoguo Wrote: In theory, yeah. They'd have to spin up a local server, get a nulled version of IP. Board, import the database, and set up their browser to remove things like IP addresses. So ... really that answer is no. While unfortunate, the best way to probably handle is would be to declassify all the IP threads together and start a 8 month cycle from the new boards. Which ... would happen in ... November?
-tsunamy
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