Waiting until after elections just means we have another Minister of Regional Affairs whose term hangs, for its entire length, in a sort of limbo state waiting for us to bring up "that topic" again. It means that we have to wait through four more months of the MoRA having an uncertain mandate before being able to press the "restart" button, whether the effect of that button is to establish new ministries or to reaffirm the MoRA's mandate in some way. Such a situation is not conducive to an effective ministry or an effective regional decisionmaking process.

Generally, I agree with what you've said, but the problem highlighted above (and I would agree that I feel it has been a problem) shouldn't exist. A ministry should not be affected by proposed changes. It should work within its current legislated position until the passing of a law changes something.

If we end up with another MoRA elected under the current legislation, I would expect them and the rest of the ministry to do the best job with what they've got for the term that they have, regardless of what potential changes may happen down the line - beggars next term the might always be a different player in charge and they have no control over that. Unless they've explicit laid out a platform for change, anything else would be a betrayal of what they were voted in to do.

May I add, anyway, that I appreciate the increased opened on the MoRA server as of this morning. This is a very good step forwards and away from what I've felt for some time is a heavy-handed and stiflingly bureaucrativ approach (which I also acknowledge was put in place with the best of intentions - I'm not accusing anyone off either malice or incompetence here).

Founder of the Church of the South Pacific [Forum Thread] [Discord], a safe place to discuss spirituality for people of all faiths and none (currently looking for those interested in prayer and/or "home" groups);
And The Silicon Pens [Discord], a writer's group for the South Pacific and beyond!

Yahweo usenneo ir varleo, ihraneo jurlaweo hraseu seu, ir jiweveo arladi.

Salma 145:8

translate

The LORD is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in love.
Psalm 145: 8

Reply

I will remind everyone that the part of the recent inactivity is due to Pacific Con, which has been in planning for about a month now.

Considering how large a project that is, and how almost everyone has been working there, it's not too surprising that the MoRA discord is so quiet.

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I will remind everyone that the part of the recent inactivity is due to Pacific Con, which has been in planning for about a month now.

Considering how large a project that is, and how almost everyone has been working there, it's not too surprising that the MoRA discord is so quiet.

Perhaps I've misread, but I don't think anyone was talking about MoRA inactivity in the recent responses. That Pacific Con has been a big deal is apparent and I for one am appreciating all the effort that has gone into it from our team and those in other Pacifics. It has not gone unnoticed!

Founder of the Church of the South Pacific [Forum Thread] [Discord], a safe place to discuss spirituality for people of all faiths and none (currently looking for those interested in prayer and/or "home" groups);
And The Silicon Pens [Discord], a writer's group for the South Pacific and beyond!

Yahweo usenneo ir varleo, ihraneo jurlaweo hraseu seu, ir jiweveo arladi.

Salma 145:8

translate

The LORD is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in love.
Psalm 145: 8

Reply

I think the time has passed for trying to convince people to change their minds about whether/how to pursue a split. We need to begin the much cleaner procedural process of determining what's the best way to get these ideas into a fair vote.

The mentality that "we must split" grew out of the hostility in this thread and the previous threads. If you look at this thread, you'll find that many times during the first few pages the idea of a split was framed several times as being inevitable and necessary simply because it's a. controversial b. technically got a majority in the most pointless kind of way and c. won't die.

You'll also find that there were many people who just thought that the idea of splitting the MoRA was "logical" because, well, each bit does something different, and there were very little mentions of the good points that came out of the MoRA's structure - especially before this term when we had a better, less convoluted structure that was ostensibly changed to please the assembly.

I really don't like the attitude that "We should split the MoRA because this discussion has gone on for time immemorial" and "The structure will look nicer" and "There are people who like the idea". As Farengeto suggested:
 

Or, you know, it's a bad idea that keeps getting shot down, but its misguided aims means it just won't die already.

Because of that, I think that in the next proposal, no-split should be taken as a serious proposal with merit behind it.

PS: I always found it weird that TSP votes for competing proposals simultaneously. It makes the "Nay" option feel less of an "I don't want these ideas to go through" and more "I don't want this specific proposal but I do want the other"

Reply

I will remind everyone that the part of the recent inactivity is due to Pacific Con, which has been in planning for about a month now.

Considering how large a project that is, and how almost everyone has been working there, it's not too surprising that the MoRA discord is so quiet.

Perhaps I've misread, but I don't think anyone was talking about MoRA inactivity in the recent responses. That Pacific Con has been a big deal is apparent and I for one am appreciating all the effort that has gone into it from our team and those in other Pacifics. It has not gone unnoticed!  

Aw, thanks

Reply

The mentality that "we must split" grew out of the hostility in this thread and the previous threads. If you look at this thread, you'll find that many times during the first few pages the idea of a split was framed several times as being inevitable and necessary simply because it's a. controversial b. technically got a majority in the most pointless kind of way and c. won't die.

I hasten to add once again that the hostility mentioned does come from both sides.

I really don't like the attitude that "We should split the MoRA because this discussion has gone on for time immemorial" and "The structure will look nicer" and "There are people who like the idea" ...

I champion for a vote because our positions are entrenched after months of debate and will unlikely change. A vote does not necessarily mean that a split bill will pass; only that we can finally resolve this discussion.

Admiral General of the South Pacific

Reply

I champion for a vote because our positions are entrenched after months of debate and will unlikely change.

MoRA leadership had closed itself off from this debate and didn't contribute its full breadth of arguments to it, and some of those arguments are very reasonable and may change some people's minds. As I mentioned elsewhere, that self-isolation within MoRA leadership is now over and everybody has been strongly encouraged to bring their arguments here (as you've seen with, for example, Johngi).

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PS: I always found it weird that TSP votes for competing proposals simultaneously. It makes the "Nay" option feel less of an "I don't want these ideas to go through" and more "I don't want this specific proposal but I do want the other"

That seems a kinda odd attitude to have from my perspective as anyone can and should vote nay for all competing proposals if they don't like them. The point of the competing bill procedure is to make sure one option doesn't get effectively 'locked out' by the passing of another and to ensure that the bill with the most support goes forwards, or, oc, none at all, which was what happened last time.

Founder of the Church of the South Pacific [Forum Thread] [Discord], a safe place to discuss spirituality for people of all faiths and none (currently looking for those interested in prayer and/or "home" groups);
And The Silicon Pens [Discord], a writer's group for the South Pacific and beyond!

Yahweo usenneo ir varleo, ihraneo jurlaweo hraseu seu, ir jiweveo arladi.

Salma 145:8

translate

The LORD is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in love.
Psalm 145: 8

Reply

I hasten to add once again that the hostility mentioned does come from both sides.

Yes, I'm not denying that.

Reply

There's a lot I feel I want to say about this debate, about subcultures it has partially uncovered, about how it and other situations have brought me the closest to wanting to leave this region and positions of responsibility in four years, about how I wasn't even sure I could get away with saying that without being accused of emotional blackmail, but you know what? It's not worth it. Any of it.

I want to see this debate continue, to get a chance to vote forward a vision I believe in for the region, but right now I'm tired and tired of being on the side that's painted as the villain quashing debate, so, until such a point where the tone changes or we're actually allowed to vote on something, I'm bowing out.

To be honest, for all that I do believe in that vision, I just want to give up and let you keep your status quo.

Founder of the Church of the South Pacific [Forum Thread] [Discord], a safe place to discuss spirituality for people of all faiths and none (currently looking for those interested in prayer and/or "home" groups);
And The Silicon Pens [Discord], a writer's group for the South Pacific and beyond!

Yahweo usenneo ir varleo, ihraneo jurlaweo hraseu seu, ir jiweveo arladi.

Salma 145:8

translate

The LORD is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in love.
Psalm 145: 8

Reply