I will also suggest maybe waiting for a week or 2 before starting the new thread, so people have a chance to have a bit of a break without constantly worrying what's going to happen to the MoRA. And also so we can work on the other proposals.

I believe that the sooner we can end this, the better.

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I will also suggest maybe waiting for a week or 2 before starting the new thread, so people have a chance to have a bit of a break without constantly worrying what's going to happen to the MoRA. And also so we can work on the other proposals.

I believe that the sooner we can end this, the better.

I agree, Rabbitz. Cabinet elections are due to begin in three weeks so it would be ideal to resolve this by then.

Admiral General of the South Pacific

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On the other hand, a rush job serves nobody. So let's not pressure ourselves into finding the one thing to vote on if it's not coming naturally.

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That being said, the MoRA will definitely be discussing ways to improve involvement that aren't so extreme.

If these less extreme measures fail, then, well, maybe we need to think about things.

However, the current system was constructed less to work and more as a response to the pressures put on by the previous debate (which went about the same as this), which is why this second discussion has happened and why I think we've discredited the idea of no split so quickly.

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I agree, Rabbitz. Cabinet elections are due to begin in three weeks so it would be ideal to resolve this by then.

 

On the other hand, a rush job serves nobody. So let's not pressure ourselves into finding the one thing to vote on if it's not coming naturally.

However, Amerion, I must also agree with Roavin in the sense that this debate has let to toxic feelings across the MoRA board. Could you agree that we should postpone this debate until after the elections and keep the current system and see where it goes from there?

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Ambassador to Osiris and TWP (4/3/20 - 7/8/20)
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I agree, Rabbitz. Cabinet elections are due to begin in three weeks so it would be ideal to resolve this by then.

 

On the other hand, a rush job serves nobody. So let's not pressure ourselves into finding the one thing to vote on if it's not coming naturally.

However, Amerion, I must also agree with Roavin in the sense that this debate has let to toxic feelings across the MoRA board. Could you agree that we should postpone this debate until after the elections and keep the current system and see where it goes from there?

I think that would be best.

Admiral General of the South Pacific

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Jebediah makes some good points in their earlier post about the continuity of ministry staff, something that was certainly much easier to manage before the current layers of bureaucracy were applied to the ministry. A split needn't preclude this, however, especially if we implemented an executive server and allowed people to apply to a kind of civil service role that meant they could potentially, take on jobs in various ministries and see (non-sensitive) activity across the board.

With regard to no split. That option has always remained in the table as it's what happens if we don't get a majority of aye votes in favour of a split. It hasn't been shunned, so much as those pro-split aren't interested in it very much and those anti-split have been posting damage-limiting compromises, but no split is the status quo we'll be left with if no proposal passes. Since we don't implement a referendum style voting system which can include multiple options, it's not terribly relevent to detail the status quo as an option so much as it might be to defend it, as many opposed to the idea of a split have done, repeatedly.

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Salma 145:8

translate

The LORD is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in love.
Psalm 145: 8

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With regard to no split. That option has always remained in the table as it's what happens if we don't get a majority of aye votes in favour of a split. It hasn't been shunned, so much as those pro-split aren't interested in it very much and those anti-split have been posting damage-limiting compromises, but no split is the status quo we'll be left with if no proposal passes. Since we don't implement a referendum style voting system which can include multiple options, it's not terribly relevent to detail the status quo as an option so much as it might be to defend it, as many opposed to the idea of a split have done, repeatedly.

That's certainly all true, but by explicitly laying out the no-split option, it helps assuage a possible feeling of defeatism amongst those that oppose the split, leading them to actually argue their point here rather than keeping their arguments to themselves and instead going for those "damage-limiting compromises".

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I really don't see the benefit of waiting until after elections to continue this discussion. People tend to have the conception that time heals all wounds -- but it's a mistaken one. Simply letting something sit for a week or a month doesn't make anybody feel better about it, it merely adds another layer of exhaustion/resignation (that "ugh, do we really have to deal with this again?" feeling) on top. Oftentimes, adding that extra layer means that people don't care as much. But I don't think we want a solution that comes out of a debate where people don't care as much, we want a solution that comes out of a debate where people care about getting things right.

Waiting until after elections just means we have another Minister of Regional Affairs whose term hangs, for its entire length, in a sort of limbo state waiting for us to bring up "that topic" again. It means that we have to wait through four more months of the MoRA having an uncertain mandate before being able to press the "restart" button, whether the effect of that button is to establish new ministries or to reaffirm the MoRA's mandate in some way. Such a situation is not conducive to an effective ministry or an effective regional decisionmaking process.

No, we need to solve the issue that we've created now, rather than letting it hang over our heads for another four months. That doesn't mean rush, but it does mean keep moving forward. I'd like to create a new thread laying out each current proposal with the specific intent of figuring out how to prepare those proposals (or any additional ones) for a vote, unless anyone has serious objections. (I know Rabbitz has already created a second thread, but to be honest, it seems just like a continuation of this same topic to me.) While I appreciate Jebediah's points, I think the time has passed for trying to convince people to change their minds about whether/how to pursue a split. We need to begin the much cleaner procedural process of determining what's the best way to get these ideas into a fair vote.

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(This post was last modified: 05-10-2020, 09:50 PM by Somyrion.)

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Waiting until after elections just means we have another Minister of Regional Affairs whose term hangs, for its entire length, in a sort of limbo state waiting for us to bring up "that topic" again.

There'll be another post explaining the details coming (I'm working right now), but I do have to respond to this: That MoRA as a ministry feels stifled by the presence of such a debate is an unforced problem, and I've spent a considerable amount of time (going to bed at 6am and 4am respectively) in the past two days in my duties as Prime Minister to address among other things that very problem. I can guarantee that the presence of this debate will no longer be stifling the MoRA in its functions, either for the Ministry for the rest of the term starting roughly now, or for the next term.

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