Users browsing this thread:

**Rebeltopia** · 02-03-2021, 08:44 PM

Im still against this being a ministry. What does the ministry do that OWL doesnt already?

Im not sure that another cabinet position is something we need, anyway. We're exactly 4 months into 3 new ministries (2 added ministers), and we've had one minister resign and another who had a recall started against them. And now, with the ongoing elections, we have 4 uncontested elections - 2 of which are of the 3 new ministries.

"...if you're normal, the crowd will accept you. But if you're deranged, the crowd will make you their leader." - Christopher Titus
Deranged in NS since 2011

One and ONLY minion of LadyRebels
The OUTRAGEOUS CRAZY other half of LadyElysium

POSITIONS! POSITIONS, EVERYONE!!

Quotes

**Jay Coop** · 02-03-2021, 09:00 PM

(02-03-2021, 08:44 PM)Rebeltopia Wrote: Im still against this being a ministry. What does the ministry do that OWL doesnt already?

Im not sure that another cabinet position is something we need, anyway. We're exactly 4 months into 3 new ministries (2 added ministers), and we've had one minister resign and another who had a recall started against them. And now, with the ongoing elections, we have 4 uncontested elections - 2 of which are of the 3 new ministries.

By upgrading the OWL into a ministry, that gives the WA minister an equal voice and vote in the Cabinet. As for the election part, there are several people in TSP that are more than capable of being elected and serving as a WA minister. However, I might as well add one of the arguments that I've made for a while, and that is the problem of electing people to lead each ministry. I have made the argument before about electing the prime minister, who themselves appoint the rest of the Cabinet, but it seems that many people are opposed to that idea.

4× Cabinet minister /// 1× OWL director /// CRS member /// SPSF

My History

Bleakfoot · 02-04-2021, 04:02 AM

I don't think the elections are the problem per se. Whether you elect your Cabinet ministers or appoint them, you've still got to find people who are willing and able to do the job properly, and that obviously gets harder the greater number of roles you have.

I also think it's a mistake to view the proposed WA Ministry in isolation. Yes, OWL is active at the moment - probably more so than some of the new ministries - but that isn't an argument for making it a ministry. It's an argument for stepping back and asking whether we really need - or can successfully sustain - so many ministries in the first place.

When we were debating the MoRA split I made the observation that much of the problem seemed to be a lack of engagement, and that the split wouldn't necessarily resolve that. I've seen nothing in the past four months that has caused me to change my view. There are simply not enough active, committed members of the forumside community for TSP to achieve everything it wants to.

At the end of the day we all have real lives and are able to devote varying amounts of time to playing this game in whatever way we want. We need to be realistic about that when setting our expectations.

To conclude, then: let's make this part of a larger conversation about what is realistic and sustainable for the community as a whole, and work from there. Let's not just throw another minister at the Cabinet table because we like the sound of the proposed brief.

**USoVietnam** · 02-04-2021, 07:45 AM

Quote:When we were debating the MoRA split I made the observation that much of the problem seemed to be a lack of engagement, and that the split wouldn't necessarily resolve that. I've seen nothing in the past four months that has caused me to change my view. There are simply not enough active, committed members of the forumside community for TSP to achieve everything it wants to.

Let's not mistake that that the split was originally for increasing activity. The issue here should have its own thread. OWL/WA ministry should absolutely being viewed in isolation here though, since it is actually a new ministry with a different community, unlike the split ones which come out from MoRA. That said, there is nothing *sustainable* that we can do here aside from either reducing expectation (since our region is actually not that bad compared to other regions) or creating a unified effort on training new people which will require the current and past generation of players who are still here to work their ass off (Preferred way, since NationStates wouldn't be that exciting of a game if you don't aim for something big, of course, most people ain't got the time for this, that is why we do have progress on this front but it is slow). I prefer to keep it where it is at this point pretty much. We will go slowly but surely on these fronts. TSP hasn't had an "infrastructure" or "framework" to train new people up, so most of our work now is to set that up.

Chief Supervising Armchair

***Tsunamy*** · 02-04-2021, 10:50 AM

(02-04-2021, 04:02 AM)Bleakfoot Wrote: I don't think the elections are the problem per se. Whether you elect your Cabinet ministers or appoint them, you've still got to find people who are willing and able to do the job properly, and that obviously gets harder the greater number of roles you have.

I also think it's a mistake to view the proposed WA Ministry in isolation. Yes, OWL is active at the moment - probably more so than some of the new ministries - but that isn't an argument for making it a ministry. It's an argument for stepping back and asking whether we really need - or can successfully sustain - so many ministries in the first place.

When we were debating the MoRA split I made the observation that much of the problem seemed to be a lack of engagement, and that the split wouldn't necessarily resolve that. I've seen nothing in the past four months that has caused me to change my view. There are simply not enough active, committed members of the forumside community for TSP to achieve everything it wants to.

At the end of the day we all have real lives and are able to devote varying amounts of time to playing this game in whatever way we want. We need to be realistic about that when setting our expectations.

To conclude, then: let's make this part of a larger conversation about what is realistic and sustainable for the community as a whole, and work from there. Let's not just throw another minister at the Cabinet table because we like the sound of the proposed brief.

(02-04-2021, 07:45 AM)USoVietnam Wrote:
Quote:When we were debating the MoRA split I made the observation that much of the problem seemed to be a lack of engagement, and that the split wouldn't necessarily resolve that. I've seen nothing in the past four months that has caused me to change my view. There are simply not enough active, committed members of the forumside community for TSP to achieve everything it wants to.

Let's not mistake that that the split was originally for increasing activity. The issue here should have its own thread. OWL/WA ministry should absolutely being viewed in isolation here though, since it is actually a new ministry with a different community, unlike the split ones which come out from MoRA. That said, there is nothing *sustainable* that we can do here aside from either reducing expectation (since our region is actually not that bad compared to other regions) or creating a unified effort on training new people which will require the current and past generation of players who are still here to work their ass off (Preferred way, since NationStates wouldn't be that exciting of a game if you don't aim for something big, of course, most people ain't got the time for this, that is why we do have progress on this front but it is slow). I prefer to keep it where it is at this point pretty much. We will go slowly but surely on these fronts. TSP hasn't had an "infrastructure" or "framework" to train new people up, so most of our work now is to set that up.

Bridge these views here, a lot of the idea was that breaking up the MoRA would promote more activity, which, admittedly we haven't seen the fruits of — yet.

But, that's not a good reason to torpedo making WA a Cabinet position since, as viet is saying, these are two different functions and communities. If, we think that breaking up RA wasn't successful, we should have that discussion and attempt to put the genie back in the bottle rather than sink a separate proposal because we don't think an earlier proposal paid the dividends we were hoping for. (IMO, its too early to know where the RA experiment was successful, but again, different discussion.)

-tsunamy
[forum admin]

**Rebeltopia** · 02-06-2021, 02:58 PM

(02-03-2021, 09:00 PM)Jay Coop Wrote: By upgrading the OWL into a ministry, that gives the WA minister an equal voice and vote in the Cabinet.

So, what youre saying is OWL should be a ministry cause power?
Im STILL not seeing anything close to a good reason to make OWL a ministry. In fact, the quote above makes me double down in saying its a terrible idea. OWL is doing exactly what (almost) every delegate in "recent" history has had an advisor do; tell the delegate how to vote in hopes of swaying the populous' vote.

"...if you're normal, the crowd will accept you. But if you're deranged, the crowd will make you their leader." - Christopher Titus
Deranged in NS since 2011

One and ONLY minion of LadyRebels
The OUTRAGEOUS CRAZY other half of LadyElysium

POSITIONS! POSITIONS, EVERYONE!!

Quotes

(This post was last modified: 02-06-2021, 02:58 PM by Rebeltopia.)

**Seraph** · 02-06-2021, 04:17 PM

I think we're at the point where people's positions aren't likely to change much. I think it's a good idea and don't find Rebel's arguments convincing, for example, whereas he clearly thinks it's a bad idea and didn't find my arguments convincing. I doubt that's going to change as I think it's a fundamental difference in how OWL and ministries and even the delegacy are viewed.

As such, unless anyone in the FOR camp thinks the proposal needs more tweaking, I motion this to vote.

Founder of the Church of the South Pacific [Forum Thread] [Discord], a safe place to discuss spirituality for people of all faiths and none (currently looking for those interested in prayer and/or "home" groups);
And The Silicon Pens [Discord], a writer's group for the South Pacific and beyond!

Yahweo usenneo ir varleo, ihraneo jurlaweo hraseu seu, ir jiweveo arladi.

Salma 145:8

translate

(This post was last modified: 02-06-2021, 04:17 PM by Seraph.)

**Somyrion** · 02-06-2021, 09:37 PM

I second the motion.

~ Aumeltopia ~

Auphelia Wrote:Raccoons are bandits! First they steal your food . . .
and then your heart/identity!

Purple Hyacinth · 02-07-2021, 12:01 AM

This has been brought to vote here.

I have been things

Avleristan · 02-07-2021, 12:13 AM

This is a useless amendment that will do nothing but take away power from the regional delegate which is elected by the people and stands for the people.

The Legislator from the Federation of Avleristan votes Nay.